地 vs 得

xiaoxiaotom

February 19, 2010, 04:43 AM posted in General Discussion

I still try to figure out the different uses of de (地) and de (得). Of course I know that 地 precedes a verb and 得 follows a verb. However the difference in meaning is not absolutely clear to me. Some people have told me that the meaning is the same (他很好地说 and 他说得很好), but the second is more frequently used. My teacher told me some nuances:

1. 地 can only be used with a two syllable adverb

2. 地 stresses the meaning of future / plans

However, lately I had to say something that maybe explains some more differences. I think these two sentences differ a lot in meaning. But I am not sure.The two sentences are:

我意外地要去出差。That in my opinion would be the correct way to say: Unexpectedly I have to go on a business trip.

However if you use the other construction:

我要出差出得意外, the meaning would rather be: I will go on a business trip that is unpredictable.

So the stress would be completely different. One would be the circumstances of the going on the trip and the other would be the description of the trip itself. Now my questions to more proficient users are:

1. Are my translations / observations correct?

2. Can the differences be generalised?

Thanks for any comments!!

xiaophil

February 20, 2010, 01:09 AM

Hi xiaotom

You wrote this: 我要出差出得意外. Is this a sentence you wrote yourself? The reason I ask is that it looks wrong to me. I have never seen 要 placed in front of 'verb object verb 得' constructions before. I also suspect there needs to be 很 in front of 意外, but that I definitely am not so sure of. It seems to me I learned before that adjectives composed of two characters don't need 很 in front of them, but my memory is very fuzzy.

xiaoxiaotom

Thanks. Yes, they are my sentences, so no guarantee at all about how correct they are. Probably not very... I keep on checking.

xiaoxiaotom

Learning by making mistakes...

xiaoxiaotom

February 20, 2010, 01:09 PM

I can also see the first few stars through the fog. Great help!!

crystal_counselor

February 20, 2010, 05:08 AM

when talk about the result, change or extent of the movement or the situation, we use 得 instead of 地。

for example, 理解得很深刻，大得很，疼得大叫，瘦得皮包骨头，乐得合不拢嘴.

xiaoxiaotom

February 20, 2010, 08:19 AM

Thanks. Yes, they are my sentences, so no guarantee at all about how correct they are. Probably not very... I keep on checking.

xiaoxiaotom

February 20, 2010, 08:25 AM

Thanks! 竟然 is indeed the word I was looking for! Can you tell me under what circumstances 意外 would be used (the dictionary also gives "unexpectedly")

zoey_counselor

February 20, 2010, 08:39 AM

意外 is a noun: 这是一次意外。zheshi yici yiwai.

意外 is a adjective：

在上海，我意外地遇到了老同学。 zai shanghai ,wo yiwai di yudao le lao tongxue.

我真意外能在这里遇到你！ wo zhen yiwai neng zai zheli yudao ni!

xiaoxiaotom

February 20, 2010, 08:40 AM

Thanks a lot.

But what is the difference in meaning between:

1. 说得很好

2. 很好地说?

xiaophil

This is how I see it:

1. 说得很好 = 'Well said', or perhaps 'You said it very well'

Situation: somebody just said something, and now the person is complimenting that somebody

2. 很好地说 = (he/she/they) said it well

Situation: narrating something that happened

First of all, I don't know if I'm right (but I think I am). Assuming I'm right, though, do you see the distinction? I believe context is key here.

xiaoxiaotom

Thanks. Yes, I think I'm getting the nuance!

BEBC

Looking at Schaum, 地 seems to be used to describe the manner in which an entire Verb Phrase is performed, as opposed to 得，which describes how a single verb is performed. Is this a partial explanation ? Can 地 be used with a single verb ?

xiaophil

Oh boy, now I'm confused. Did Schaum give any examples?

BEBC

Yes -

我妹妹吃得很慢 My little sister eats slowly

他的四声说得不准 He speaks his tones inaccurately

他慢慢地把门开开了 He slowly opened the door

他没有好好儿地做 He didn't do the job well

你得好好儿地准备功课 You'd better prepare your lessons well

(p. 79)

In example 4, 没有 seems to go with 做, not 好好儿，so we still have a verb phrase rather than a single verb.

xiaophil

That's interesting. I'm kind of half doing something else right now, so I can't wrap my mind around it. Will be back.

xiaoxiaotom

Thanks so far for all the input!

BEBC

xiaotom: it's a learning opportunity for us all !

I have also found that :

地 (marks adverbials of manner) emphasises the actual manner in which the action is carried out and the speaker recounts it, whereas

得 (introduces complements of manner/result) emphasises the manner in which the action is SEEN to be carried out and the speaker COMMENTS on it.

So, the 得 construction produces a topic-comment sentence, whilst the 地 construction produces a subject-predicate narration.

This I found in 'Intermediate Chinese' by Yip Po-Ching and Don Rimmington.

Some examples:

他在认认真真地学习 He is studying conscientiously (ie. he has conscientiously adopted this attitude). This narrates what happened on a particular occasion.

他学习得认认真真的 He is studying conscientiously (ie. he is SEEN to be doing so) This is a comment.

他好好地跟她说 [narrating] He spoke to her nicely (ie. was not abrupt/unkind)

他说得很好 [commenting] He spoke well (ie. what he said was clear/convincing)

BEBC

PS. Re: my comment on sentence 4 above - it seems that 地 is used because 好好儿，as a reduplicated phrase, is an adverbial of manner - not because it is describing the action of a single verb.

Complicateder and complicateder :)

With regard to xiaophil's two examples, from the above it seems that:

1) Here we have a comment on the way the speaker spoke.

2) Here we have a statement/narration on how the speaker spoke.

After all this I think my fog is lifting a little !