Simplified and Traditional
go_manly
March 23, 2010, 05:40 AM posted in I Have a QuestionYellowbridge has 2 different entries for the Simplified character 复 (fù). Both entries have almost identical meanings, yet correspond to two different Traditional Characters, 復 and 複. Could someone explain the difference?
bodawei
March 23, 2010, 08:34 AM够 gòu and 夠 are the 'same' character - it can be written either way.
Trying to look for logic in 'simplification' can be troubling. :-)
When you say that 'the Traditional form is the same as the Simplified form' I wonder what you mean. 80% of characters, say, have not been 'simplified' - so what you maybe think is a simplified form is actually a traditional form that has not been tampered with. That is, where both forms are the same, the traditional form has not been changed. I guess you can call this either 'traditional' or 'simplified', it doesn't matter, but strictly speaking these unaltered characters are in their traditional form.
user76423
March 26, 2010, 04:37 PMI have another question about trad./simpl. forms:
周 and 週
I have learned that the traditional form of 周末 is 週末, and not 周末 (that's displayed here @CPod as traditional form).
My (trad.) IME also shows only 週末 after typing "zhoumo".
Wenlin shows both, but seems to prefer 周, saying "A variant form is 週".
My Taiwanese dictionary says:
周 zhou1 = circumference; completely; a surname
週 zhou1 = week; circuit.
So 週末 seems to be the "more correct" ;-) traditional form.
What's more, even CPod seems not to be consistent:
In the suppl. vocab you see:
週六 zhōuliù Saturday
週日 zhōurì Sunday
What is correct, what not? Or is there no "correct form"?
user76423
March 28, 2010, 08:51 AMHi everyone, I'm NOT a Chinese boy/girl and do NOT want to learn English, I'm learning Chinese (especially traditional characters) and would appreciate very much to get an answer for my question (above). Thanks!
user76423
March 29, 2010, 08:08 PMI push my question about 週 and 周 again to the top, maybe somebody is able to answer it... Thanks!
tvan
Hape, I can't authoritatively answer your question, but it seems like there are many "simplified" characters that have been in use long before there were "official" simplified characters (e.g. 什/甚). Both my Chinese-English and Chinese-Chinese Taiwanese dictionaries list the definition for both 周末 and 週末 as weekend/雙休日. Thus, I think this is probably one of those cases. In the case of 周, it must be a fairly old character. Nothing authoritative, but one of its meanings is the Zhou dynasty, so it stands to reason.
IMO, if you want to see how traditional characters are used in Mandarin, Taiwanese publications are the best source. Dictionaries are OK, but often reflect how some stuffy academic thinks the language should be used, not how it is actually used. Along those lines, the 世界日報, an overseas publication catering to Taiwanese seems to prefer 週末.
changye
Hi tvan
I didn't know that “周末” was used in Taiwan. In Japanese, only “週末” is used. As you said, the character “周” has a very long history, and it dates back more than three thousand years. On the other hand, “週” is a relatively new character, which was created sometime between the 3rd and 6th century.
http://140.111.1.40/yitia/fra/fra00559.htm
tvan
Hi changye, thx as always for the link. Actually, I think that you are right, “週末” is the considered more proper. Again, nothing too authoritative, but I did just check with a couple of Taiwanese friends, and that was their opinion.
@Hape, its good to see a fellow learner of traditional characters.
changye
March 30, 2010, 06:11 AMHi hape
“週” is the traditional form of the simplified character “周” when it's used in the sense of "a week".
go_manly
March 23, 2010, 05:43 AM够 (gòu) in traditional form is 夠 - the 2 elements of the character are simply reversed. Can someone explain that in the light of the simplification process.
bodawei
够 gòu and 夠 are the 'same' character - it can be written either way.
Trying to look for logic in 'simplification' can be troubling. :-)
When you say that 'the Traditional form is the same as the Simplified form' I wonder what you mean. 80% of characters, say, have not been 'simplified' - so what you maybe think is a simplified form is actually a traditional form that has not been tampered with. That is, where both forms are the same, the traditional form has not been changed. I guess you can call this either 'traditional' or 'simplified', it doesn't matter, but strictly speaking these unaltered characters are in their traditional form.
user76423
March 30, 2010, 01:32 PMThank you, changye & tvan, for your answers.
Maybe there is no easy answer.
The trad. lesson transcript of "Finishing Work for the Weekend" (B1374) is (for me) a bit irritating (there seem to be some inconsistencies?) as the trad. lesson says: 周末 week, but 週六 Saturday and 週日 Sunday.
Seems 週/周 is on that list of characters with two often used forms, like 裡/裏, 甚/什, 臺/台, 凈/淨, etc.
changye
Hi hape
The relationship between “周” and “週” might be the same as that between “台” and “臺” （or “什” and “甚”）. For mainlanders, “週” is the traditional character of “周”, on the other hand, for Taiwanese, “週” is a variant character of “周”, so they use both “週” and “周” in Taiwan.
tvan
March 30, 2010, 01:36 PMHi changye, thx as always for the link. Actually, I think that you are right, “週末” is the considered more proper. Again, nothing too authoritative, but I did just check with a couple of Taiwanese friends, and that was their opinion.
@Hape, its good to see a fellow learner of traditional characters.
changye
March 31, 2010, 12:20 AMHi hape
The relationship between “周” and “週” might be the same as that between “台” and “臺” （or “什” and “甚”）. For mainlanders, “週” is the traditional character of “周”, on the other hand, for Taiwanese, “週” is a variant character of “周”, so they use both “週” and “周” in Taiwan.
go_manly
April 07, 2010, 05:22 AMBump. There has been a bit of talk here, but no-one has yet touched my original 2 questions.
user76423
April 07, 2010, 01:19 PM復 [simpl.:复] fù = turn round / turn over / answer / recover / restore / avenge / again
複 [simpl.:复] fù = compound / complex / plural / poly- / duplicate
覆 [simpl.:复] fù = cover / overturn / upset
changye
April 07, 2010, 01:24 PMThere is no simplified form for the character “覆”, which is used both in traditional and in simplified Chinese.
tvan
March 30, 2010, 11:13 AMHape, I can't authoritatively answer your question, but it seems like there are many "simplified" characters that have been in use long before there were "official" simplified characters (e.g. 什/甚). Both my Chinese-English and Chinese-Chinese Taiwanese dictionaries list the definition for both 周末 and 週末 as weekend/雙休日. Thus, I think this is probably one of those cases. In the case of 周, it must be a fairly old character. Nothing authoritative, but one of its meanings is the Zhou dynasty, so it stands to reason.
IMO, if you want to see how traditional characters are used in Mandarin, Taiwanese publications are the best source. Dictionaries are OK, but often reflect how some stuffy academic thinks the language should be used, not how it is actually used. Along those lines, the 世界日報, an overseas publication catering to Taiwanese seems to prefer 週末.
go_manly
March 23, 2010, 01:05 AMAlong the same lines, 杆 can be pronounced gān or gǎn. Both seem to mean 'pole'.
The Traditional form for gǎn is 桿, while the Traditional form for gān is the same as the Simplified form.
I am aware that gǎn can be a measure word. Other than that, what is the difference between gān and gǎn?