Media level...is there a higher level?

Hmm... how should one define 'fluency'? It seems to mean different things to different people. My own students often ask me 'when will I be fluent?'

My own working model of fluency is that if a person can communicate effectively in another language, (even though their grammar may not be perfect, even though they may have a foreign accent,) then they are fluent in that language. Increased use of the language will 'polish' their ability. Practice makes perfect.

And so regarding CPod Media lessons and great literature, it's my belief that knowledge of them, deep study of them, is not necessary to achieve fluency. Of course if you already have the ability to get into that, all well and good, it will enhance and refine your skill(s) and knowledge of the language and culture.

But quite frankly, if you want to develop fluency, if you want the ability to communicate in just about any situation with Chinese people, the most time should be spent working up the levels and intensively studying the most commonly used language, which can be found in CPod levels Newbie to Upper Intermediate.

Of course the development of fluency must also include quite a bit of speaking practice, actually trying to use the language you have in your head with another person. You can't really get there solely by listening to podcasts and reading PDFs. If fluency is your goal, you have to find a way to get this practice, somehow.

In the end (as with many things), it will come down to determination, how much you want to succeed, and how much time you are willing or able to put into study and practice. Since I came to China I have known foreigners who become amazingly fluent in just 2 to 3 years, because they practice a lot, (and I mean a lot). I also know foreigners who have been in China for years and can still not participate in the simplest Chinese conversation.

As for me, I still regard myself as a beginner in Chinese. I have never studied a Media Lesson, they are way outside my comfort zone. I can just about cope with Advanced lessons, but I find them discouragingly tough. I spend almost all my CPod study time at Intermediate and Upper Intermediate, and from them I learn language which enables me to communicate on a daily basis with (most of) the Chinese people around me in the part of China I live in, who tell me that I have made great progress in the last few years.

Mastering a foreign language takes time, a lot of time. In the end fluency is perhaps a subjective thing, you are fluent when you feel you are! But I'd say for most western people, you can't expect to be fluent until you've been studying for at least 5 years, and that needs to include many hours of actual real-life conversation in Chinese.

Ok,I could be shot down for saying this,and as a caveat maybe I was too young to appreciate it at the time [or maybe just because it was "forced" reading by school] but it never struck me as being all that either.But there are plenty of other fantastic American novels.One of my all time favourites was "Uncle Toms Cabin" .Maybe you could try some of Mark Twains works also,but that's just the tip of the iceberg of American literature of course.

Hi baba,

to answer your question: The "Red Chamber" was like a different language. To me it seemed to be even further apart from modern Chinese than Shakespeare is from colloquial modern Englisch. 古文y. Each sentence took me as much as an entire Advanced dialogue.

However, it nevertheless was tremendous fun - as if I found a door to another dimension of Chinese. I left Flatland and entered Spaceland. If you really have some time, I would encourage you to do it.

I've also tried other - modern - novels as well with varying degrees of frustration. As I see it, reading news is really simple compared to reading even simple novels. The vast amount of 成语 and 生僻字 is really bringing comprehension down. Besides the specific vocab for animals, plants, and structures you also have a gazillion of expressions for emotions.

Technical papers or books however are always giving me a confidence boost. Those computer science nerds do not tend to include any of the above mentioned obstacles in their language.

My personal benchmark: Being able to follow Chinese TV and radio and enjoy average Chinese movies without subtitles. I made progress in that regard, but I am still not quite there.

I still struggle with whether I want to learn to read Chinese well, so I can spend my old age reading Confucius in my rocking chair or do I want to watch Chinese movies from that same chair and maybe occaisionally impress random Chinese strangers that I might encounter. Its a tough call but either way, I will be old before I know this language. Someone said its the journey that brings the joy, and thank God for that.

Hi rjberki

"Analects" is a very good choice for us learners of Chinese. It's written using only one thousand and several hundred Chinese characters, and thankfully the number of proper nouns used in the confucian canon is very small. Above all, every verse is very short!

I wonder if the number of westeners who can enjoy Confucius in their rocking chair is more than single-digit. Some journey to draw joy from, there.

Besides that, I don't think it is a choice. At least for me, it is the combination of reading and listening that pushes me forward (slightly). Most of my English vocab I acquired from reading - but that doesn't deliver the feeling for the language. You need to inhale some South Park for that :P

That was an amazing article.You are so right,tal_.On talking of that Chinese classic,the "Dream of Red Mansions",only a small percentage of Chinese college students have ever read through the whole book.( BTW,I read through the 'three kingdoms' for at least 10 times,it's a must-read for teenage boys according to the previous generation.) Due to the influence of Information Technology,handwriting became less often among the young generation.Just take a close look at what Chinese young students are reading now,you will find it's not literature or other meaningful books,but low-quality vulgar novels full of unrealistic love stories or animations.

In my philosophy,what foreign language learning really needs is your attitude,a saying goes like this,"It is your attitude not your aptitude that determines your altitude."I didn't pay one pence to learn English,and I started it almost 2 years ago,I totally taught myself,and I am able to read The Economist or The Time with some help of dictionary work.

I oppose those who hold this viewpoint,"If I spend a lot of money on it,I must succeed"

Totally expose yourself to this language and try to recite the whole dictionary.

Hi bababardwan

Written Chinese has been greatly colloquialized in the past one hundred years, but actually you can still find a lot of "hard-to-read" classical style writings in magazines, newspapers, and on the net. In a sense, written Chinese is the essence of the language, which has a very long history.

It seems to me that, generally speaking, distance between colloquial and written styles in Chinese is a little larger that that in English. I imagine that some Chinese intelligentsia tend to be tempted to write bookish style writings, which I think is not necessarily a bad thing.

Reading such Chinese writings is a challenging job, but I think it's really worth trying to challenge. If you're very interested in Chinese culture and history, Chinese reading skills are a must and more important than conversational skills, specially when you don't have much opportunities to speak Chinese.

Fortunately, in my opinion, improving reading skills is easier than improving conversational ones. All you need is to read Chinese as much as possible. I think that reading Chinese writings of interest for you is more worthwhile than practicing conversation alone facing a wall.

how should one define 'fluency'?

..yeah very good question mate.I found myself pondering the same thing some time back. When folk learn that you are learning Mandarin it is often the one of the first questions they ask...are you fluent? I always have no hesitation in saying that I am a very far way from it.But it also struck me how it seemed that in the questioners mind it was clearly defined but how this was a very hazy notion in my mind. No doubt there would be a wide degree of variance in what it would mean amongst others I feel.

not necessary to achieve fluency

..yeah,I certainly don't think being able to follow great literature will be necessary for fluency and nor is it my aim.I was just curious and think it would be nice to look at some contemporary excerpts just for edification. I think being able to follow media, and have conversations with the man on the street so to speak will be my yardstick and dream one day,though I'm more journey than destination focused.

if you already have the ability to get into that

...no ,far from being able to follow media at this stage but it's nice to have a peak into the future occasionally and just see where it's at ,what the level is like and maybe even stretch oneself in a major way sometimes....good exercise.

Upper Intermediate

..actually I find this level ok to follow.Now if I could only remember all that stuff esp when it comes to the construction side of things then I'd be very happy.I agree,if one could have conversations that were conducted at this level then I think that'd be great.But for me there seems to be a huge gap between being able to follow such a lesson and conduct conversations at that level.Also ,this site has the luxury of replay buttons,and all those tools set in front of you that make it so much easier.Still very necessary for learning ,but I think thats at least partly accounts for what one can follow here and how one goes in the wild.Of course I think that it's a case of plugging away here and then continuing to practice/practice/practice in the wild and eventually that goal should be obtainable.Oh yeah,I've just read on [was replying on the fly] and see you've just said the same thing.

Thanks tal for this mate. :)

when speak of literatrue,i'd like to share my adventure of American Literatrue.

I had read the chinese version of "The Great Gasby",and had some knowledge of the background of this masterpiece(as the translator said),but,still,i dont know why it is a masterpiece. Maybe i sould read the English version.

Thanks changye, that's all very interesting and informative,particularly to get the comparison to English:

distance between colloquial and written styles in Chinese is a little larger that that in English

I think it's really worth trying to challenge.

...I agree.

improving reading skills is easier than improving conversational ones.

...well that stands to reason.Spoken language is subject to confounding factors such as accent,speed,pronunciation,volume,hearing,distractions [eg background noise],and you generally get one shot at it,whereas reading has it all set before you clearly and you can take it at your own pace and refer to resources.

Thanks mate.If you do come across some good works of literature on the net,be a chum and post a link here if you get the chance.Cheers :)

RJ,

I'm greedy and want both,but have no idea if it will ever become a reality.I do intend to just stick at it though and continue to enjoy the ride.At a pinch,if forced to choose though I think I'd rather be able to follow tv and movies than read.

btw I love the image you conjure though of reading Kongzi in the rocking chair.I'd love to join you mate ,and as we'll both be a bit deaf I'll have to yell every few lines " Hey RJ,whaddya make o' this mate ?"

Cheers :)

good point.

I agree with this completely ."reading news is really simple compared to reading even simple novels. "