'A vision of students today'

Thanks Ken for encouraging us to think.

I already posted this in the "Autism"-comments, but I cannot contain myself so I post it here again. It shows 1) the role of enthusiasm for learning at an extreme example 2) examplifies this with French (4 month for Chinese vs. 8 years for French -> at least factor 24)

Thanks for posting that Ken. I'm not exactly sure what his point is. Is it a criticism of standard classroom education? I have been a teacher in standard classroom environments, as well as settings that were totally immersing and interactive. I will admit that I prefer the latter, but it's not always possible. To me, the points raised seemed most indicting of the attitudes of the students themselves. For example, "I paid $100 for a book I'll never open." Well, whose fault is that?! Are the students engaging in self-examination? If so, bravo. I find it's not always possible to be entertaining as a teacher, but I feel it's something students have come to expect. The most important school supply is a student's curiosity. Isn't it asking an awful lot of the education system to provide motivation as well? Take Chinesepod as an example - what percentage of your subscribers have signed up because they have a desire to learn Chinese? As innovative as Cpod is, how well would it work if few wanted to be here, but it was required?

I apologize to everyone if my rant was tedious or off the mark, but I think I caught a whiff of the same sense of entitlement you alluded to in your blog posting.

scottyb: I think you're right on.

pretty insipid stuff to me, I reacted on Ken's blog

I agree with Ken 110% here. Kids in China (and in many other places around the globe) would die to have an American education. If one thing has really started to irritate me since I began living abroad, it's how much people back home take for granted the great opportunities they have.

TECH AGE - It's hard for me to really tell what the video is like as I also can't see it as I am in China, but from the text of the transcript, I'm not sure what the issue is, and why Ken's took such a strong dislike to it. I think the descriptions the kids wrote are pretty accurate, is it that people somehow think it's bad what they are doing? In terms of education? It's very similar to the workplace in the U.S. today, people are constantly online text messaging, ordering stuff online, etc. Work still get's done though, kids still learn. The difference I would suggest is that a lot of the things the kids mention, using facebook, surfing online, these all involve technology and further connections, I don't think this is a waste in time. In fact, there is tremendous strength in knowing how to utilize these connections. The kids of today, when and if they want, can generate a lot of power almost instantly in bringing together knowledge, deseminating facts, etc. In contrast, kids, say in China...have little ability to pursue these connections while in their classrooms. Yes, they can and do run off to play games in net bars, but there is not the means for kids in Chinese universities to bring laptops into classrooms that have wireless connectivity throughout a campus. Books do cost a $100 at U.S universities, I think it's a valid criticism. Does the editing and writing from the books author's really value-add $100 over similar subject matter shared on Wikipedia? From what I could read out of the transcript, I hear that the students are asking for more, they are demanding better, and they realize there are better opportunities to utilize their time. All I can see is that these kids would love a Chinesepod curriculum and dump in a heartbeat a standard Chinese course as taught today.

Lantian, I agree with your point about the students demanding better. They pay a lot for their education, so they certainly have a right to evaluate the product. Also, I don't think it's the use of current technology that's bad. I totally agree with your point that it brings tremendous power into the classroom (I was showing youtube video of birds of paradise to make points about evolution last week - on the spur of the moment). But they need to use it in constructive ways. Spending hours texting and emailing friends, but being too helpless to text or email IT about accessing online class resources makes it seem like they are wasting their time. I have also experienced resistance from students to doing things like substituting a group "webquest" activity for a traditional mid-term test.

My biology text book was $130. What really got me was when they changed editions for the second part (next term) of the course. However, I still have the book (I sold back very few of my books). So, if I ever wanted to peruse over the Krebs's cycle again (woohoo!), I could.

Ken, I definitely admire your dedication and interest in education and the like. Very much an inspiration to me, and gives me something to learn from as I prepare also to help in the education world of adults with language acquasition. Keep on telling us about your contributions and keep the info coming!

The issue is that there are a lot of spoiled students who grow up with a sense of entitlement: that someone (person or organization) owes them something more. Their lives have not prepared them to know how to work hard (HARD) to achieve their goals. Many are not even sure why they are there (in college) in the first place. From personal experiences as an educator, from the workplace, and even from children of relatives and friends, this is an all-too-common trait in middle-class American culture. And it is not new. It was just as prevalent in the 60s-90s. And I still firmly believe it begins with the parents. It is an uncommon gift to find a student who is self- motivated and truly pushes themselves to learn. And they come from all of the diverse American subcultures. These are the students who make you glad to be (or have been) a teacher. The rest will muddle through live and wonder why others seem to succeed so well. Technology is simply a tool. How its used reveals a lot about the person who wields that tool.

Hi kaixiaoguo dog, Just to play devil's advocate. Why does one have to work "hard" in this day and age. Isn't the whole purpose of all the technology, social rules, etc., to make life easier? Granted it's not the situation in some places. I hear the kids saying they'd like to work "efficiently". I bring this up in the Chinese language context because it seems a common urban myth that learning Chinese is "hard" and one must "whip oneself" in agony to learn it. I've found instead, now with Cpod, and some tweaking, it's kinda, easy, fun AND efficient. :)

I do not at all like how this drifts towards student bashing here. From my experience (German universities) students are not worse or lazier than 10 or 15 years ago - despite the complaints of some collegues ("in our times life was so much tougher"). Much the opposite so. Of course there is the complete spectrum - typical Gaussian distribution. But we still see some exceptionally good and motivated students. By definition there is only a small group of top students - not because they are doing some kind of self-flaggelation learning-approach but because they are more interested. And of course there are quite a few "who are not even sure why they are there". So is life. It is about experimenting, the straight line is not always the best. It is an investment that our western societies leaves doors open for trying and uncovering the own strengths and weaknesses. And even to have periods of reduced "efficiency" and get a grip later. To build up on Lantian: If learning looks and feels like hard work it is probably not at all efficient. If it is fun then naturally you will start spending long hours pursuing your studies. But does fun count as hard work?

I do not at all like how this drifts towards student bashing here. From my experience (German universities) students are not worse or lazier than 10 or 15 years ago - despite the complaints of some collegues ("in our times life was so much tougher"). Much the opposite so. Of course there is the complete spectrum - typical Gaussian distribution. But we still see some exceptionally good and motivated students. By definition there is only a small group of top students - not because they are doing some kind of self-flaggelation learning-approach but because they are more interested. And of course there are quite a few "who are not even sure why they are there". So is life. It is about experimenting, the straight line is not always the best. It is an investment that our western societies leaves doors open for trying and uncovering the own strengths and weaknesses. And even to have periods of reduced "efficiency" and get a grip later. To build up on Lantian: If learning looks and feels like hard work it is probably not at all efficient. If it is fun then naturally you will start spending long hours pursuing your studies. But does fun count as hard work?

Hi Lantian, Oh, its fine to be devil's advocate... I do understand your comment and chuckle along with you. In sort of an odd way, perhaps efficiency just makes it easier for lots of other people to be just as good as you :-) I think a number of older workers have a problem accepting that point. In the Chinesepod context, I think it applies to both learning the Hanzi and in determining how far you wish to go in learning the language. You can easily use various computer tools to input, translate or whatever to words. And that is indeed efficiency. But I'm sure all of the seasoned Chinesepod users would advise that to truly be competent you need to put pen to paper so to speak. Though I'm new, I absolutely love Chinesepod. And I actually find Chinese much easier than say French -- not the reading and writing of course. But the grammar, verb tenses, etcetera. I pleaded with my niece and nephew to learn Mandarin... but they chose Spanish in high school and now in college. ...sigh...

You guys, have not seen what being in a middle school in America is! I love talking wiht you guys and I love chinesepod, but you guys have no idea how bad it is in Middle schools and most high schools in America, thats why I am home schooled, so I don't have to deal with "society" ,or they think theyre society, because in most classrooms that I have been too, which have been great schools and horrible ones, there are very veyr litlle, if any students, that actually care about anything they study. I understand that you might not like a subject in particular, but students just don't know what they are given every day in the classrooms, and I bet you that if out Educational System wasn't so messed up as it is, we would have a much better society. Thanks CPOD and thanks all!

Cashewdog Never heard and English speaker say that Mandarin was easier than French before! Surely not. In the end the hardest thing (I think) to learning a language is acquiring and using the vocabulary. With French you have an enormous advantage that half of English words come from the same source as French and many are really just the same. With Chinese every new word and character and sound is alien and the mind has to learn to associate it with the right meaning.

I'll second Cashewdog. I've found learning Chinese easier than French. Although the writing is much more difficult, Chinese is so much simplier than French or even English for that matter.

Kyle, textbooks often have the chapters rearranged from one year to the next, with staff getting complementary copies. the purpose, of course, is to make students have to buy them every year and avoid a secondary market for used texts. It's a rational strategy for publishers, but spineless of universities to go along with it. Scotty, I wholeheartedly agree with you, the real innovations are in use of technology, rather than the tech itself. There's an example I'm always fond of mentioning when this topic comes up. When electrical power started replacing steam power on factory floors, only modest productivity gains were made. The real jump in productivity came when industrial engineers understood that electricity can be sent through thin, flexible cables, as opposed to steam which has to go through thick pipes. This makes radical factory layout redesigns possible, but someone had to think out of the box, first. It has the potential to transform teaching, learning, research, and of course communication, but the real obstacles often come from users accustomed to other ways of doing things. I'm following a course on european history from UC Berkeley as a podcast. I listen because I want to, nobody is making me, and I wont be graded on it, only my own interest keeps me coming back. As a result, it's not impossible that I'm getting more out of the lectures than people who are actually there, as I might be paying more attention. Being an ocean away from Berkeley isn't keeping me from picking up the content. And yet, in the first sitting, the professor told her students that attendance is obligatory...