What do you think about my observation?

It might be that I've been in Asia so long that my view of direct is somewhat altered, but they are surely more direct today than 10 or even 5 years ago. The people I more regularly deal with have had one job or more before working with us, so the experience probably comes into play as well. The people that are young, and in their very first position, are pretty demure.

I can't help but wonder if Chinese treat you differently because you are not Chinese. Perhaps they learned somewhere that foreigners like someone with ambition. It would be ironic if this is the case as you sometimes think their demands are premature enough as to be laughable. At any rate, I am sure that Chinese are becoming more and more direct. Still, I honestly have talked to quite a few Chinese about this, and none of them thought being so direct is a good idea. Could it because the people we are talking to have a significantly different profile, or perhaps it is a statistical anomaly?

Yes, and in replying to myself, I should have added that I do believe that there is the opposite end of the spectrum in the West, that is *not necessarily better*. I was going to elaborate on that aspect, but it would stray from the original post. Just to keep in mind, though, different cultures, but a common denominator of being human!

I know some great Chinese executive managers, I think you have to look at it case by case... Plenty of poor western managers to compare them too, you know.

Ironic as aren't the Westerners supposed be the ones who grant independence? I guess the issue is feedback, though.

I had a very similar experience in a previous job in Shanghai. My supervisor's responses to my work boiled down to either "OK" or "do it again" (but with no indication of why what I did wasn't what she wanted). I was also the first non-Chinese she'd ever managed, and she didn't take my "what do you want me to do?!?!?!" particularly well. Everyone was pretty frustrated by the situation.

Thanks for telling. That sounds about right. I have heard Chinese in China say similar things before. I remember one saying that her boss likes to say he is very flexible, but actually, if she doesn't do her tasks in very certain ways, certain ways that he won't tell her because he is 'flexible,' he will be grumpy.

Fair enough - we are all biased. :)

I have to say this quickly.

Generally, fair or not, a lot of non-Shanghainese think that many Shanghainese are intolerant of outsiders. But from my observation, and that being partially from having students from about half outside of Shanghai, and half from inside Shanghai, I must say that in general, the Shanghainese are more likely to accept newer ideas and customs. Just one mans observation, but one that has been repeated again and again. I know that I might be biased, though.

Hi xiao_phil

Forgive me if we have been over this ground before (at a different altitude perhaps) but I query your assumption that Shanghai represents the progressive end of the 'progressive - conservative' spectrum in Chinese society. You suggest that people from outside Shanghai are more conservative. From what I have seen around China and people I have met I could make precisely the opposite argument. Or.. we need to define our terms a little more carefully. Try testing your stance against a few different criteria, such as:

1. Tolerance for social differences, different life styles, sub-cultures, accommodation of different social norms, treatment of those who are a little bit different

2. Acceptance of new ideas

Marx would turn in his grave !

Oh well, good for a laugh.

Actually, the "liberation" of Tibet in 1950 seems to be used as a counter-argument here. Then, of course, feudalism officially ended in 1950.

How convenient !

What definition ? Societies change and develop in complex ways due to internal and external forces, environmental factors etc. All societies have or have had multiple forms of economic and social relations - there were forms of capitalism in the roman slave economy as well as feudal type relations. Scholars generally set the fall of Rome in the 470s; what happened then ? Was there an immediate transition to feudal relations and forms of production ? No, things developed towards widespread feudal relations, probably due to the more direct exercise of military rather than civil power, and later capitalist production grew from seeds sown in the slave economy - the 'feudal' society of Europe was in a state of constant change and development - you couldn't take an instant of time within this development and say THIS is feudalism.

We can identify periods when a particular social form of production was predominant, but within that period all was change, and attempts to mark any date, decade or even century as the official end or beginning of a social-economic form is pure propaganda, and is based on the self-perceived interests of the propagandist.

Having said all that, it's probably convenient to see the demise of the Qing dynasty, which released the brakes from capitalist development, as marking a significant turning point.

Sorry to change the subject. Speaking about feudalism, I wonder what officially marks the end of feudalism in China.

According to the definition, it should be the abdication of the Emperor in 1912 (封建朝廷退位) not the creation of the PRC in 1949.

Essay writing is very important at school and in high school/college entrance exams here in the PRC, which originates in 科举制度 (Imperial examination system) in feudal days, and students are required to write "good" essays. You can find tons of study guides that are full of example/model essays at book stores. One of the most important things in writing a "good" essay is “思想健康” (healthy way of thinking), of course, from the standpoint of adults and the CCP. Every year the topics of essays in college entrance exams make the news here.

Hi Zhenlijiang

There was a time when the state decided your career path - now it is your parents! :) Although the history is interesting, I wonder whether China and the West are quite close now in this respect. In my experience in Aust (where ALL the children are above average) there are often high expectations from family/school/friends about (a) attending university and (b) doing the sexy course. Seriously, it is sad how much many children suffer before they are able to pursue the career they really want to do. [I'm not sure whether I answered your question.]

Hi Bodawei so you mean the teacher, when you say "this (now phased-out) behavior". I'm not sure I understand well your comment to Xiaophil. There was more 'science' to it--how so?

And it's one thing to advise a student that he/she is suited for a particular future career, based on that student's aptitudes. What I found outrageous was that the girl was told to change her (the original was truthful) story about what she wanted to do with her life, for reasons I have to say I don't understand.

Hi xiao_phil

I wrote something on this to Zhenlijiang but I just thought I should add (from discussions with people who did have their career mapped out for them) that I think that there was more 'science' in it than you might expect. It certainly was not the case that everyone was directed to do the current 'hot' occupation - they were in effect career advisers, but there was very little choice involved of course. Also, in those days, parents had very little say. But in general they were looking for a good fit between the individual and the occupation.

Hi Zhenliiang

Scuse me coming in on your conversation with xiao_phil on this behaviour was the norm for people now in the forties and older (I'm not sure exactly about timing but I assume that it phased out from maybe 20 - 25 years ago.) People were commonly told what their future occupation would be. One of my teachers related this in teaching us just some of the uses of the verb 参加 (a very versatile word!) About 30 years ago she was advised that she should 'participate' in the teaching profession - something she did very well I might add.

So I guess that was a story from the 80s. Interesting. Thanks for answering my questions.

The girl is now a thirty something woman. She wrote this paper in primary school. From what I gather, the teacher told her directly that she should want to be a scientist because everyone wants to be a scientist. Apparently that was the top respected job back then, and that all the students wrote that they wanted to be a scientist (but I don't know by 'all' if she meant every single one of them or just many of them). She said that later being a businessperson became the ideal. I don't remember if she told me if the teacher gave a reason. I suspect the teacher wouldn't have because that's just the way things go in China with teachers, especially that age. But yes, she did rewrite it. I didn't probe her too much about her feelings, but I can tell she didn't like it and thought it was weird. I particularly like talking to this woman because she likes telling these kind of oddball stories.

I know it's off-topic to your thread, but this kind of thing fascinates me. OK let's be honest, "I find that outrageous" is more like it. Do you know more, about the girl whose teacher said her paper should be rewritten? Did she rewrite it (did she have to, to get a good grade)? This was in primary school? The reason--was it given? Because a librarian isn't a career worthy of a paper? Not worthy of a future ambition? If the reason wasn't spelled out, did the girl understand why (would Chinese kids be expected to get why?), later on if not then? How did she feel about that then? Now? And what does she want to do with her life now?

I must admit that modesty in China does baffle me as I too see some behavior that isn't modest, at least by my definition. Then again, I do find that if I just try to chit-chat with a typical Shanghai resident about what their dream life is, it is remarkable how many of them will say that just having a happy family is good enough (which I doubt is true). I kind of feel, as you said, that dreaming a little in a school paper might be okay, especially if they kind of feel that's what you want them to do. Also, you being a foreigner might give them the feeling they can open up a bit.

By the way, I have a one-on-one student who said that when she was little she wrote a paper about how she wanted to be a librarian when she grew up. The teacher told her that she should rewrite it and say she wants to be a scientist.

Haha. No I just talk rubbish and assume I'm right all the time :p

I wouldn't have thought otherwise. I thought perhaps you had some extra super super duper eagle eye view into Chinese culture, but eyes, ears, a brain and talking to people are good enough in my book.

Well, I've never been to China, but I have eyes, ears, a brain, and I do talk to people :-p

Really ? In my experience it's just as much who you know as what you know, and how brown you are willing to get your nose.

Where's my trousers ?

It seems you have more exposure to Chinese society than just your girlfriend. Is that right?