ChinesePod: Better than University

Danjo, Thank you for sharing your learning experience. Yes, you are right, the most important thing for learning a foreign language is practice. For our chinese, all the chinese students have english course in school, but what we learn from the material stuff is different from the practical using. And although many students can get a high mark in a english test, they still find hard to open their mouth and speaking english. So more and more people began to focus on the spoken english, you are right, that is why many chinese people eager to talk to foreigner.

Interesting stuff. I started with courses in the US and now self-study and work in Taiwan. I have found advantages in both methods; the course provided guaranteed input and feedback, with a lack in areas of conversational language. Self-study in Taiwan, however, initially scored high on conversational language. Though I have recently shifted focus onto reading and discussing publications with a tutor and friends. Without the courses in the States, I don't think I would of had the foundation necessary to work with complicated material. So with this in mind, although some university students may not speak well, even at the 3rd year level, they probably do possess a solid foundation, onto which they can add conversational elements easily and sometimes effortlessly.

@danjo: Really interesting to hear your experience with University. I'm based in the UK and have always toyed with the idea of signing up to a Mandarin course to supplement my study on with ChinesePod. Initially I had the perfect excuse that no courses were available where I lived, but now that I am living in London I am spoiled for choice. I put off signing up to a course until I found out that work was running a series of 12 Mandarin Beginner lessons: an hour and a half one day a week for 12 weeks. So far I've missed two out of the first four lessons, but my experience has been really positive. There are around 5-6 of us in each class and the teacher ensures that we are given every opportunity to speak, even if it is just simple repetition of phrases. There is no speaking quietly either as she is not afraid to single you out and get you to speak louder. Whilst the level of Mandarin is probably slightly below where I am on ChinesePod, the opportunity to practice out-loud and have your pronunciation corrected is invaluable. I have also found it really encouraging to meet fellow students (face to face rather than on Skype or MSN). The lessons are no substitute for ChinesePod but they do serve as a great compliment and I am glad I signed up. Good luck with the self study. China is no doubt the best place to be doing it.

If you are talking about 口语 only I agree. I also learned Chinese by myself for a long time (using books, various audio sources and tutors) before I joined a class for the first time. My spoken Chinese is usually better than that of my class mates, but their reading and writing skills are far superior to mine. Right now, I am focusing on more formal / written Chinese and the classes I attend really help me to learn this much faster than I would on my own.

"My spoken Chinese is usually better than that of my class mates, but their reading and writing skills are far superior to mine." That's somewhat surprising since self-study usually focuses on writing and reading whilst neglecting conversation (which is due to the nature of practice when studying on one's own, but of course a tutor makes up for this, obviously increasing your oral skills) - do you have any explanation as to why your fellow students are more advanced, reading- and writing-wise?

@kuaizi: I was mostly interested in learning spoken Chinese during the first years, so I usually got texts and materials with lots of dialogues and informal language. Since I live in Hong Kong I always had access to a couple of native Chinese speakers and because of that I had lots of opportunity to practice. I actually can read (and to some extend write) most of what I can speak and understand, so no problems there. However, now I am more advanced and interested in formal and written Chinese which is sometimes quite different from colloquial spoken Chinese. My class mates are mix of who have studied Chinese full-time at University for several years, Japanese, and Koreans. Most of them had lots of exposure to difficult formal texts and can thus can handle them much better than me. For example, last week we had a test where we had to read an article on traditional Chinese medicine (without dictionary of course) and then answer some questions. Most other students finished within 40-50 minutes, but I was still struggling when the test concluded after 90 minutes. I think apart from the other students having different backgrounds than me, one more reason is that I use computers a lot for reading and writing Chinese. So once it comes to writing something more complex using pen and paper, I am having serious trouble.

So I guess my message is that Chinesepod (and similar podcasts) are very good for people who want to learn some spoken Chinese, but definitely not enough for people who want to go beyond that. So the title of this topic should probably be "Chinesepod: Better than university if you want to learn some conversational Chinese only". :)

Hey Dan, This is an inspiring story and a great testament to your determination to learn Chinese. I'm also really glad that we can be of some help to you. I guess you're learning Mandarin on your terms - that, to my mind, is what it's all about.

Dan, My early experiences learning Chinese are similar to yours. I didn't have ChinesePod, but I had a dictionary and a lot of determination, so I got out there and practiced a lot. I hired a private tutor for a short time, and she helped some nagging pronunciation issues I had (r, x, q, etc.). I didn't do formal study of Chinese in China until I decided to take the HSK. I found the university classes pretty boring, but also rather well targeted to the HSK. (If there's one thing the Chinese educators do well, it's written tests!) After that I decided to go to graduate school in China, which required that I (1) learn a bunch of linguistics and 现代汉语 stuff in Chinese, and (2) step up my writing ability quite a bit. I did that over the course of a year with the help of a tutor (not more university classes). Obviously, everyone has different learning styles, but it seems to me that for the truly motivated learner (also NOT SHY), university classes should be one of the last options you consider. For those of us in China, tutors are not expensive, and it's hard to beat one-on-one help. Anyway, a lot of what I learned in studying Chinese on my own makes it into the podcast content, so in a way, you're all benefiting indirectly from my own struggles... :)

oops, it should be "they still find it hard to open their mouths and speak english." Typed too fast :-)

And HSK like apps drilling sentence composition and Chengyu usage...

Sebastian - True, I should have mentioned that. ChinesePod does not teach you reading, though it does help with learning characters, so I actually do a lot outside of ChinesePod lessons. I buy Chinese magazines, I read Chinese on the internet and on signs and posters I see, and I'm still studying the reading textbook the school gave me. It has flaws but I do learn a lot from it and I don't have better textbooks available here. I am studying for the HSK (using a book of mock exams) now so ChinesePod is definitely not enough on its own. Ken - Glad you found it interesting. I'm a bit of a ChinesePod promoter to my friends, possibly to the point of annoyance. John - I lean slightly towards the shy end and I still get tons of speaking practice, which I think is testament to the Chinese peoples' extreme patience and friendliness towards foreigners. I think an introverted Chinese person starting with almost no English in America would have a harder time of it. Henning - Whether or not it is through ChinesePod I also hope that one day there is a service for written Chinese that makes learning as painless and interesting as it is in the ChinesePod lessons.

On a side note, while in Shanghai I decided to visit ChinesePod and had the chance to meet many of the crew, including John, David Lancashire, Amber, Clay, John B, and (very briefly) Jenny. They were quite friendly and accommodating and it was a nice experience.

As far as learning Mandarin in a classroom setting is concerned, I have had both good and bad experiences. The number one factor in whether the class is a success or a failure is directly related to how "skilled" the instructor is in being innovative. I define "innovative" as teaching techniques that are fun and motivate the student to get lots of speaking practice in class. For example, one really skilled instructor that taught me an Intermediate Mandarin course, used the following methods: - Two students go into separate rooms. One would call the other on a cell phone and read a message in Mandarin. The other student would have to provide an English translation. Very effective in simulating a real-life situation which helped both speaking and comprehension skills. - The instructor would do a regular "game" exercise such as "I'll speak in Mandarin and you (the student) translate to English" or "I'll say something in English and you (the student) provide the Mandarin translation. Note that he would request participation of everyone in the class. - He would write out several sentences and the students would be required to identify the grammatically incorrect ones. - Students had to read one of the passages from Integrated Chinese. He would record each reading and give us detailed feedback on pronunciation mistakes. - He would do informal stuff such as introducing the day's lesson in Mandarin and then quickly pointing to me and ask "Paul, what did I just say ?". Needless to say, I came away from that course totally impressed and much improved with my language skills. A refreshing change from the "textbook" approach that focused on endless repetition of words out of context and boredom. Proof that there can be positive learning experiences in a classroom setting.

That was one of the most frustrating things--having taught English in China for two years, I know how to make a class interesting and challenging. To pay so much money for lessons not even as good as my own (I'm certainly not the best) was greatly disappointing. Others have had much more positive experiences, even at the same school, especially the ones that had come there through one of a couple of American programs.

danjo, I am taking Chinese in the States from a guest instructor from 西安/Xian. I am towards the advanced end of the curriculum, so the class size is around 10. The textbook covers topics related to students living in China, while Cpod deals with more contemporary themes. Both cover various cultural aspects, but Cpod ventures into edgier areas avoided by universities. Overall, my personal experience is that the two are complementary.

In my university experience this year, the teachers and classmates make a huge difference. I started out in a class where most of the students had just arrived in China for free (scholarship), and really weren't interested in learning Chinese. Progress was slow. Some of the teachers weren't so good. Even the good ones didn't push the students that much. Except our listening teacher, but some of my classmates were quite upset with her for it. But I switched to a class where most of the students had lived in China for several years already, and English was pretty much forbidden in the classroom. Wow. That pushed me. It made me much more serious about ChinesePod so that I could build up a large enough listening comprehension vocabulary just to follow what was happening in class. There is one thing a university provides that CPod never will: a student visa! I can't see myself applying for one with my iPod and PraxisLanguage receipt. To be honest, I'm not self-disciplined enough to learn a language well unless I do it full-time. Especially if I'm bombarded by eager English students 7 days a week. After teaching English in China for 2 years, I knew how to count to 10 and order 宫宝鸡丁.

"step up writing ability" If you guys would additionally incorporate your experiences in that regard one day into functionality & content, I would be the first to pay an extra fee... Writting training apps, (paid) written homework correction, lessons on how to formulate written sentences and on the structure of Chinese letters, emails, documents... Sigh. I still haven't given up hope that one day CPod will become a full stop provider for learning Chinese.