Simplified, Traditional or Both?
rarefruit
September 30, 2008, 03:06 AM posted in General DiscussionWhat do you recommend for a person living in the United States and learning Chinese for personal growth and does not expect to ever travel to China or do business with any Chinese companies. Most or all of the conversation would be for pleasure with Chinese Americans or other Chinese language students. Reading would be the local Chinese papers or restaurant menus and any opportunity to speak the language would probably be in Chinese restaurants or in the Chinese markets, culture centers or China town. I took one semester of Mandarin Chinese and the instructor seemed adamant that we learn both simplified and traditional and at the time didn't seem so overwhelming in a classroom setting. However the class was cancelled after the one semester and learning both styles on my own has become rather tedious. I am just wondering if I should buckle down and keep learning to read and write both or if it would be a better use of my time and energy to concentrate on one or the other, and if so which would be smartest given my current interest in learning. I noticed that the lessons give .pdf in both simplified and traditional so it is apparent that even after more than 50 years of simplified coming to be that traditional stills seems to have some place in Chinese language. Does anyone have any practical experience as if both are important or should one study just one or the other. And if I were to ever have an opportunity to visit some part of China would I be kicking my self for not studying both or find that I wasted my time studying both? What about school children in China, do they still learn both or is it just simplified? Are there other regions that do not recognize simplified besides Taiwan?
goulnik
September 30, 2008, 03:39 PMcan anyone explain the meaning of this statement from the Epoch Times article mentioned by hape :
...scholars from mainland China, Taiwan, Korea and Japan reached a consensus to standardize the font of commonly used words, mainly the traditional characters.
what is meant by font and word in this context, any specific example?
oops, just noticed a link at bottom to the original article in Chinese. I guess I need to read it carefully first.
henning
September 30, 2008, 06:51 AMxiaohu,
actually I am personally studying the language PURELY for pleasure. I don't see any other explanation why I have been doing this so many years now.
Is there any other valid reason?
:)
xiaohu
September 30, 2008, 07:35 AMHape,
Yes I know about the recent resurgence of Traditional characters, and I certainly hope that gradually Simplified characters are done away with entirely. I have commented in many other blogs about my disdain for Simplified, however the vast majority of the Chinese speaking world only know Simplified. It's all they've ever known, and the only character-set that they use.
Few mainland Chinese can actually read Traditional, and even fewer can write them by hand. I've posted in many blogs about how the degree of difficulty in using a computer to render Chinese characters is the same,
IE: D+A = 达
D+A= 達
With such a minor need to write by hand, why even bother with Simplified? Right? The time it takes to input and output Simplified and Traditional characters is the same, so why not just use the character-set that not only looks more refined and balanced, but also carries the original cultural and literary connotation? Right?
Wrong.
There is a great need to write by hand, and as much as it pains me to admit it, it's so much more convenient to write a 6 stroke 达 as opposed to a 13 stroke 達.
Until I see a sweeping change in the psyche of the average Chinese back to Unsimplified Characters, then I'm standing firm on my view that learning Simplified first is the way to go. Besides, if it gets to the point that there is a great need to learn Traditional, it's a short hop, not a great bounding leap as you've suggested.
HENNING:
I'm not so sure about that, doesn't your Chinese wife factor in just a bit? Communication with your wife, and cultural understanding of her background play absolutely no part in your extensive study of the Chinese language?
henning
September 30, 2008, 07:41 AMXiaohu:
I gave up understanding my wife long ago. I just love her.
:)
Don't overrate that wife factor. It works short term in the beginning but can become a real backlash later. I am not the only one who made this experience.
bababardwan
September 30, 2008, 08:23 AMxiaohu,
From reading many of your posts ,and your obvious superior knowledge and experience to mine I have developed a respect for what you say.Thus,when I first read your post earlier today I must say I went away feeling a little discouraged as I am purely doing this for fun and in the grand scheme of things have only been doing it for a very short time.While I'm sure you are right most of the time,I hope that you aren't right on this one.I would like to reach a reasonable level in this quest.Of course it comes down to the individual and how motivated one is and thus only the individual and time will tell.I was glad to read hennings reply to this.I hope there are others who have attained reasonable levels of proficiency just for fun.With much respect.
sushan
September 30, 2008, 08:44 AMHi, just to relate my own experience I started just for pleasure and with traditional, with the idea that I would eventually become familiar with Chinese literature. I am really glad I never gave up in the early days when it took me more than an hour to find a character in a dictionary. (Learning on my own, no classes, no Chinesepod at the time.)
Now I live in China and concentrate on simplified for practical reasons.
But if you just pick one style for now, you can brush up on the other when you have a more pressing need.
xiaohu
September 30, 2008, 08:51 AMHenning，
My point was, that because of your Chinese wife and In-laws, having a clear connection with the culture and people in many ways helps to fuel your desire to learn Chinese.
The situation I was referring to in my earlier post was that of the classic, "learn a language because it sounds like fun" case-study.
You know the kind as well as I. They suffer from the WHITE HOT interest in a language, then after a few months to a couple years of classes and lack-luster self-study abandon it completely, syndrome.
This case-study is all too common among language learners, they start up with the notion that learning a language will be fun and cool. They see people who are bilingual slipping effortlessly between languages and they seem like magicians!
They want to feel that sensation of POWER! They want the MAGIC! Yet they have absolutely no connection with the language, or the culture of the people of the language they choose to learn. Let alone understand the sheer depth of commitment it takes. Our "hero" might as well pick a language by throwing a dart at a dart board.
OH...CHINESE...THAT SOUNDS LIKE FUN!
Invariably our case-study picks up a textbook and a dictionary, begins trying to teach himself, or goes to a few classes at a community college, fancying him/her self as a linguist, with the grand romantic notion that "after a few months they are going to be fluent."
They see some immediate results, much like someone trying to lose weight sees the first 20 pounds melt off like ice on a red hot summers day.
This person will inevitably hit the wall.
Those immediate results they saw at first are then replaced by a slow, plodding, tedious pace. The feeling of accomplishment is then replaced with that of doldrums. Utter boredom and frustration.
Our case-study then begins to take days off from their study. Days turn into weeks, weeks into months.
This poor sod keeps telling them-self that tomorrow they'll go back to it, and that they will be able to pick it up right where they left off, as if they never stopped.
Absolutely incorrect!
The next time they pick up their studies will be after months or years of no study...they'll find the only things they remember about the whole language are, "Hello, Goodbye, Yes, No and Thank You"....if that!
The harsh reality will come crashing into them like a tidal-wave, devouring their desire in a great swirl of voracious white foam. They are now appalled when they realize that all that hard work they did over those many months was all for not! Every precious minute of their life that they spent trying to memorize words, phrases and grammatical patterns was now completely wasted. Their language ability is all but useless.
Depression sets in as they realize they could have put all that time, TIME and LIFE they will never get back again to much better use.
This is the stage that they will give up for good.
To quote a great movie, "热带惊雷"...
The hero of our story is, like a white dwarf headed for a black hole, it's physics, it's inevitable.
So for anyone out there who is attempting to learn Chinese because they think it will be "a lot of fun"...please consider instead taking up professional Tiddlywinks.
goulnik
September 30, 2008, 09:05 AMHaving tried both, and visited both Taiwan and mainland China a few times, I would agree with xiaohu that if one has to choose, simplified is the obvious choice. No need to argue about undermining structural integrity and such like, simplified are undoubtedly simpler, much less memory strain, faster to handwrite, does make learning faster (my bias being I have no interest in character 'etymology' and no need for stories to memorize individual characters).
Like henning, I also learn entirely for pleasure, but that does not contradict xiaohu point on MASSIVE commitment of time and energy (just check henning rankings if in doubt).
I started learning Chinese a long time ago while living in Singapore, but at the time I was only interested (fascinated would be more appropriate) in written Chinese, thought I could do without learning to speak. It didn't last very long, and when I started again many years later, I corrected that mistake.
That's why I am a little puzzled by rarefruit intro does not expect to ever travel to China or do business with any Chinese companies... Reading would be the local Chinese papers or restaurant menus and any opportunity to speak the language would probably be in Chinese restaurants or in the Chinese markets, culture centers or China town.
Quite a few contradictions here, not the least of which is where he (must be a 'he') intends to speak Chinese --unlikely to be Mandarin, multiple dialects possible-- and what he intends to read --unlikely to be simplified. And, sorry to be blunt, what sort of personal development is it to not even consider ever going to China.
RJ
September 30, 2008, 09:21 AMXiaohu,
Its the progress that provides the pleasure and the labor is a labor of love as they say. You cant tell me you dont enjoy studying Chinese. And yes, Arnold did enjoy being at the gym. If you dont enjoy something, do something else. Serious study of Chinese is not easy, so its work, but anything valuable takes work.
I will not enter the Trad vs Simplified argument. Weigh the factors and to each his own. Its not a religion, a political party, or a school of thought. Its just a personal preference based on personal needs and goals and may very well change over time. I know what I do, but to argue that its right would be pointless.
Henning- great answer. Dont feel bad, I cant understand my wife either, and Chinese has nothing to do with it. Teaching Chinese is a lot of work, and expecting a spouse to provide this kind of support is a mistake. Learning Chinese is your hobby, but that doesnt mean that teaching Chinese will be hers. Expecting this is a good way to get kicked in the groin.
user76423
September 30, 2008, 06:46 AMI won't comment everything xiaohu (little tiger) wrote. I don't have the time, and my English isn't very good (I' m German).
BUT:
(1)
Learning Traditional Chinese characters is pointless because so few people still use them.
Absolutely wrong. If you want to understand - I mean UNDERSTAND - the characters, the way is: first traditional - then simplified. That's the easy way. The other way is hard, very hard.
The question is: do you want to understand written material (in local Chinatown - mostly trad. because they left PRC, in HK - trad., in Taiwan - trad., and even some labels menus etc. in the PRC are written in trad. char.)?
(2)
... not going to help you in the long run to concentrate your efforts on something that is on the decline.
Who says that trad. characters are in the decline? Read this:
http://en.epochtimes.com/tools/printer.asp?id=61854
Cit.:
Although the simplified characters have fewer strokes, they actually undermine the rules of basic structural components of Chinese characters and their own cultural connotation. Some of the simplified characters even carry the opposite meaning of the originals, thus making Chinese more difficult to learn. It's difficult for people who learn simplified characters to understand ancient literature. Consequently, the Chinese culture has been damaged, and the most valuable part of the culture has been destroyed.
If you really are interested in Chinese, you first have to learn to speak. After some time: start with trad. characters and learn the simplified ones along the way.
sushan
September 30, 2008, 09:55 AMThere are those who do love just learning languages, for whom learning to say a new sound is like tasting something really good for the first time and for whom the decoding of a foreign script is the most engaging of mental challenges. Most learn for some practical reason or need though. Pleasure not required but it sure does help.
xiaohu
September 30, 2008, 09:59 AMRjberki,
Thank you. You've illustrated the point of my little case-study perfectly. Those who start with an INTEREST and a sense of commitment are successful. They enjoy, strike that, they are CAPTIVATED by what they are doing. They are in love with the subject matter, the process and the end result. This is the make-up of a true language learner.
Most everyone who's seen my previous posts already know I have been an actor. In acting circles we constantly lament those who call themselves "actors" who get into the business for all the wrong reasons. They want the fame, the glory, the money and the power! They are not even in the LEAST bit interested in the ART of acting. They view acting as a necessary evil...a means to an end and nothing more. They are FORCED TO ACT because that's they way for them to gain the fame and fortune they seek.
This is not unlike my case-study. The person in my case-study entered into learning the language for all the wrong reasons.
I absolutely am enthralled and dare I say IN LOVE with the Chinese language. Moreover the people, and the culture.
Everything on this earth springs from a seed. Of course in the initial stages the interest could be based solely on a feeling, as it was with me. Later that feeling developed into something greater, it sprouted from a seedling into a great Bamboo Forest teeming with life. This is how it is for all of us.
Because of my love for this language, the journey is a joy! It's a labor of love that keeps me motivated.
What I warn against is those who start off, in it only for the MONEY and the POWER. Not meaning power in the sense of Presidential power, Celebrity power, but a kind of power nonetheless. A power to provide a vital connection, the ability to provide communication between people from different sides of the world, and if one can position oneself, the ability to make a great deal of money as a professional translator.
These are all the wrong reasons to start to learn a language, because even if you are greatly motivated by money and power, along the way you will assuredly find easier ways of getting it that don't involve spending years of your life completely dedicated to one task.
We're not even talking about the effort it would take to be THE BEST, like 郭晶晶 spending half her life in pursuit of being the worlds best Diver. No! We're not talking about the gargantuan effort it will take to be an elite, we're talking here about the gargantuan effort it takes just to be ABLE TO MAKE FLUENT CONVERSATION!
Many, many more countless hours go into becoming professional!
That's why I say, right from the start, check yourself. Ask yourself, "what is my true motivation for learning Chinese".
If the answer comes back, from a deep-seated love, interest, or feeling, then chances are you are in it for the right reasons.
If you are in it for the right reasons, then the journey will be your pleasure.
bababardwan
September 30, 2008, 10:11 AMxiaohu,
aah.Now I see where you're coming from.I feel a lot better about it now.I certainly am loving it and enjoy the process of learning.Definitely in it for the journey more than anything else.I never expect to get any money or power out of it.I am enthralled by it and love not only the language but the history,culture ,people and associated arts.Of course being such a novice I realise my opinion will count for little in this debate ,and it's up to me what the future holds,but I just thought I'd let you know I'm more in line with your thinking now,though I'm not sure that I agree that it helps to generalise [of course what you say with your case study will apply to many ,as in any pursuit,and particularly a challenging pursuit ].I believe people need encouragement [as many will believe to a large extent what you tell them about themselves].But I do recognise that you are just trying to be honest and helpful and certainly have experience on your side.Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience.Cheers :)
ruby1314
September 30, 2008, 10:22 AMWhat are you talking about?
jonsnow
September 30, 2008, 11:18 AMYes I'm getting a little frustrated..however unlike yourself I do intend to travel and live in china at least for a year and from my understanding I thought simplified was the most common with traditional being reserved for fanciful occasions like weddings etc.
However on Playasia.com and yesasia.com the majority of the computer games are sold in traditional...EEEK!
tvan
September 30, 2008, 12:52 PMI think that simplified makes the most sense now given the sheer numbers involved.
That said, based on personal experience, the hardest part about learning to write Chinese is... learning to write Chinese. Once you know one system, learning the other isn't easy; but it's not inordinately difficult either. 70+% of characters are the same, and about 90% of the remaining ones follow some easily learned rules. The remaining 10% can and will drive you crazy (e.g. 导 versus 導) but, if you memorized 4,000 characters, you can learn these as well.
So, to reiterate my main point, it's not an irrevocable choice. Make a choice now for simplified, traditional, or both. No matter which one you've learned, if you decide to switch later, you will start knowing 95% of what you need to know to switch.
changye
September 30, 2008, 01:39 PMI sometimes play the piano just for fun, although I can only play easy piano pieces, such as Turkish March, Traumerei, or Waltz of Fat Puppy. I know I don’t have much musical talent and I’m not a diligent learner, but I still think that playing the piano is much more enjoyable for me than counting how many specs of dust build up on your kitchen counter after 6 months, hehe.
frances
September 30, 2008, 03:11 PMchangye, I suppose that means that you don't have any great love of cooking?
From my experience, there are still lots and lots of places where I run into traditional characters. I study both sets, and since most characters have not been simplified, I don't consider it much of an imposition. Each time I'm not confused when encountering traditional characters, I'm glad that I do.
I'd also point out that despite the China's efforts to get everyone organized and using simplified characters, I often come across traditional characters coming from Mainland sources. Though I'm sure they're making progress on this front, the traditional characters will never just turn to dust and blow away. Even if you choose to study primarily simplified characters, there will always be a reason to at least learn to recognize the traditional ones.
RJ
September 30, 2008, 09:29 AMXiaohu,
the road to fluency is littered with dead heros such as yours. Such is life. It is a lot of work, and thats why you must love it to do it.
xiaohu
September 30, 2008, 05:51 AMRarefruit,
The answer is simple...lified!
Learning Traditional Chinese characters is pointless because so few people still use them.
Sure with your menus and local Chinese newspapers it's going to be in Traditional, but I'll tell you, it's really not going to help you in the long run to concentrate your efforts on something that is on the decline. As much as I really hate to say it, because I absolutely LOVE Traditional characters and quite despise Simplified, but one has to be practical.
Learn what's the most useful, and more importantly what's most ACCESSIBLE.
I know NOW you are saying that learning Chinese is for enjoyment, and you will never use it in a professional setting, but what if that changes? It did for me, I started off learning purely out of interest and it's grown into something I want to do as a profession.
By the way, if for you learning Chinese is PURELY for "pleasure", then I recommend you STOP NOW, and don't go any further. Throw in the towel. Let it go. Let go of the reigns. Give up. Get out now while the getting is good!
Why?
Because unless you're REALLY passionate about it, learning a foreign language, ESPECIALLY a difficult language like Chinese is neither stimulating nor fun.
Learning a language requires hours and hours and ENDLESS hours of study and practice.
Do you think Arnold Schwarzenegger became a world champion body builder because he thought working out a the gym for 8 hours a day and sticking to a special regimen of tasteless foods was FUN?!
It's the same with learning a language. Sure at the very beginning it's stimulating because you can say a few words at the local restaurants in Chinatown and the cute waitresses giggle and compliment your Chinese. This is a false sense of security. After you go past the first few exchanges and try to go deeper into the language...and you can't support conversation with a reasonably large vocabulary and someone comprehensible pronunciation, then TRUST ME..........the pleasure will be GONE very quickly! I've been there!!!
You have to make a MASSIVE commitment of time and energy. We're talking hours upon hours, days upon days, weeks, YEARS of your life! Otherwise it's purely a waste of your time.
Put your time and energy into something that's going to bear fruit in your life.
Your time would be better spent becoming the local Guitar Hero champ, or learning to fold dollar bills into the shape of a Pterodactyl, or writing an award winning thesis on the caloric content of fine, aged, room temperature Tapioca, or counting how many specs of dust build up on your kitchen counter after 6 months.
ANYTHING will be better than learning Chinese.
Furthermore, if you're just in it for "pleasure" then the question of Simplified Vs. Traditional is completely and utterly a moot point then, isn't it?
That having been said, IF you're REALLY INTERESTED in it, then learning Chinese will be the greatest joy and single most enriching and rewarding experience of your life...I promise you that!