Helping Newbies

an aspect I haven't seen so far:

As Ken once said: Input - input - input. I would love, that when I sign up, i get a daily newbie lesson - until I feel comfortable to advance to ellie. And indeed, the awesome archive helps you guys a lot.

So once a week free lessons and a daily scheduled automatic archive lesson into the personal rss feed and I bet it would boost the learning.

Especially, because newbie lessons are about high impact vocab in various situations, the usefulness of each presented character would reveal itself to the brain.

Thank you bababardwan.

Ken,

The other thing I would like to see in the European languages section is a dictation exercise.

You already have all the database work done.

It could work like this.

The script would randomly pick a word from your vocablulary list and play the audio.

You would type what you heard.

The script would compare your entry with the answer and either congratulate your success or ask you to make corrections and then if you fail twice, show you the answer.

I don't know how or if that would work here.

Cobre,

I thought it was you mate,but you've changed your avatar.欢迎来中文Pod.Thanks for your help on Spanishpod.I don't know too much,but if I can return the favour just ask or PM me;happy to help where possible.As for the vocabulary section sound it is there,but only in the flashcard test if you click on the dropdown list next to test.But perhaps you mean without launching the flashcards.It is also in each of the lesson dialogues by clicking on the red arrows,but I'm sure you know this as well.Actually,good point;I think I see what you mean.It should be in the main part of the vocabulary section.

Hola,

A year ago I stumbled in here while pursuing Spanish.

I kind of liked the Spanishpod approach and I thought it would be cool to study both so I signed on to praxis.

It didn't take long to discover that I wasn't nearly as quick as I hoped I was. Time and energy are limited. I spent last year focusing on Spanish and clambered out of the newbie status.

This year's gift to myself is Chinese with vacations in "spain."

The initial comment by bababardwan is a good one. We need nuts and bolts and tools. Then there is the matter of basic vocabulary. In Spanish, French, and Swedish there are all those common roots that give one a platform to work from, but even in those languages there are the divergent roots. In learning those languages a preselected list of common but non related words to focus on would be a great help. 

In like manner a list of 100 - 200 most often used characters/phrases would be great.  They will pop up like old friends as I start working my way through the lessons.  That predefined list should be in the vocabulary section, under:

Show: all vocabulary, 100 common words, etc.

The other thing missing in the vocabulary section is SOUND, add it!

gracias,

Cobre, 铜

Just a thought: can newbies really ever "learn chinese on their terms"?  Chinese being so different from most western european languages (and I am assuming most visitors to the site speak these) - then, whatever "terms" they have about Chinese are likely to be totally and bewilderingly wrong!  Their model of the Chinese language probably is similar to the monkey's mental model of nouvelle cuisine - or the dog's mental model of office politics - or the lion's mental model of the automobile.  It is so far outside their experience that any ideas they form about how they should proceed with their studies will merely be exercises in naivete.

When I first started learning chinese I wrote myself a little Flickr app which would bring up pictures for any word I was looking up in chinese.  I thought this would help me memorize words. Did it help?  Not at all.  Totally pointless waste of time.

I once saw a documentary about parenting - where a social worker complained about a parent not providing "warmth and structure".  From my experience of chinesepod so far (not huge by the way) - I feel it scores absolutely massively on warmth - but maybe needs to score higher on structure.

ken, obviously any relevant demographic and financial data are in your hands, but i have also suggested elsewhere that of all the levels intermediates are in need of the most help in terms of writing correction.  totally agree w/all of henning's points.

sorry ... i do know this thread is about helping newbies

Not to detract from the importance of doing all one can for the newbies [and hopefully encouring them to stick around to reach higher stages such as Intermediate and beyond],Henning has made a very convincing argument.

Hi Ken,
of course those are hypotheses only, not backed by data. But here is the rationale:

1. Intermediates have a proven interest and staying power - they have already passed beyond the "I give it a try" phase. It is therefore more likely that they will continue much longer than the average Newbie. My guess: Each Intermediate stays here about 6-8 times as long as a Newbie.

2. Intermediates are more likely to become multiplicators. Because of point one, it is reasonable to assume that they have already built a network of contacts with other learners and/or institutions that they can promote CPod to.

3. Intermediates will appreciate CPod more because they have probably already experienced the alternatives and their weeknesses. And  they need all the stuff beyond the podcasts more (Expansion & Exercises, QingWen, GrammarGuide, PwP, etc.).

4. Intermediates do not have as many alternatives - most of the interesting material out there is either Newbie or Advanced (although this argument has become a little weeker in recent years, it is still valid).

5. Unlike truely advanced learners, Intermediates still need a language service. They cannot purely work with real life sources (CCTV streaming, Chinese radio, sina, news.google, novels...).

6. Eventually, unlike Newbies, Intermediates have to pay for their podcasts, as those are not free. Multiply this with "Newbies are less likely to appreciate add-on-services".

Both the percentage and the contents of posts are good indicators for all this.

Ken,

Thanks

re:"I tend not to get involved in these  dicsuiions becasue I don't want to influence the conversation  too much"

This was understood from the outset,and I agree with that approach of listen first.However,as the thread had died right down,I was interested at some point in:

"I'm off to write a plan of follow-up action."

...hearing the upshot of this at some stage.I suppose it was a little impatient of me;just overexcited I suppose.No pressure.I'm sure we'll see the upshot of it in due course.Also I agree that in responding it's better to have a well thought out plan than give some knee jerk response.All good things in time.Cheers. :)

Marvelous input. I really appreciate it. To  answer babardwan's question, I tend not to get involved in these  dicsuiions becasue I don't want to influence the conversation  too much. I weant to learn rather than influence in these threads.

Henning, I'd be interested toi hear why you perceive intermediates as having the highest customer value.

If you have more observations, pls feel free. Now I'm off to write a plan of follow-up action.

maybe its time for the "ask Matt" show?

@lotsofwordsandnospaces,
296 lessons!

@Ken: What about a thread "Helping Intermediates"? I am still convinced those have the highest customer value.

Also, I think the amount of shows for a newbie is a bit thin - it it part of how a newbie connects with the site (or itr certainly was for me when I was leeching from iTunes). CPod is badly missing it's 'magazine' show. The Saturday Show, and Dear Amber were fantastic, particularly for the newbie.

sebire,

"The next time I would have come across 算了, I would have forgotton it."

...hehe,nice irony.

...I suppose one can survive without saying the word for squat as charades will work quite well in this situation.

bababardwan,

I think learning that kind of language is fun, but imagine you have had a look at the introductory set and then did that lesson. Of course, I think "where is the loo" is pretty high up on my list of phrases to learn in a foreign language (probably comes after "hello"). It's just that I would like to learn other ways to say "where", and for a newbie they would have to try to find a lesson that teaches them about asking where stuff is, and then perhaps directions - I don't think they're necessarily easy to find. Instead, you're learning phrases like "squat" and "forget it", which is probably quite low down on my immediate priority list if my first exposure to Chinese was the introductory set. I don't find stuff like that easy to remember, but fantastic to learn a couple of weeks in. What I find easy to remember is "我的xxx在哪里？" and "我的xxx在这里", because you learn a pattern and how it can be applied. Perhaps this is just how I learn and other people are different, but if I remember correctly, I never put huge amounts of effort into focussing on the 算了s right at the beginning, because let's face it, back then, I listened maybe a couple of times a week? The next time I would have come across 算了, I would have forgotton it.

I think the content is there on the site, it's just that newbies probably need to be pointed in the direction of the lessons that use the 还是 pattern or the 你去哪儿 pattern etc, otherwise they will become disillusioned and give up, like I did on several occassions.

tvan,

Good point.I believe when you're on a good thing,stick to it.So I certainly wouldn't change the entertaining way the podcasts are produced and I certainly wasn't suggesting any such thing.My point was that with 295 newbie lessons in the archive now,I think I could guarantee that the x number of most commonly used words could be made up from several different combinations of lessons.Also I don't think such a vocab list would have to be exactly matching those vocab lists that are published.I think CPod could make their own and say this is the benchmark for this sublevel.It may get a bit harder it higher levels perhaps,but then if there is some key vocabulary missing this could also be a feedback tool for CPod itself as to something to look at incorporating in future lessons,without it being the main guiding creative force.I agree,keep to the current formula.

Sebire,

re:那算了...hmm.You may be right and it would be interesting to hear what newbies think of this but I'm not inclined to agree with you for two reasons.Firstly the English equivalent is not obscure...well forget it ..is pretty common everyday stuff.Secondly while it may not be quite as high frequency as other newbie vocab,as there are only a couple of these in the dialogue I think it would make it not too daunting.Continuing to come up with natural language that is useful and at the same time entertaining enough to remember and not too challenging must make newbie level the most challenging to create in many ways I'd imagine.I think asking about toilets is a pretty essential newbie type topic and I think we have to allow for some natural responses like 那算了。。。which of course had great entertainment value in this case and something I think many westerners could relate to.

tvan, I'm sure the CPod team could come up with a bunch of fun lessons that cover the basics in a structured introductory manner! I hate stilted lessons too, but I hated playing scales on the piano - doesn't mean they aren't useful.

@miami_meiguoren - I agree, and Chinesepod's ever growing lessons definitely facilitate that. My concern is that we know that plugging away works and that chinesepod facilitates that, but some new Newbies maybe don't.

Encouraging personal goals or perhaps providing structure for personal or optional set goals during those early stages may help new Newbies stick around longer.

@Ken - Although the Guided Plan is available and useful for all levels, maybe the above could be achieved with occasional Guided Plan marketing campaigns with Newbies in mind.

I don't oppose the idea of core vocab per se.  However, be careful; you might get what you wish for.  CPod currently focuses on practical converations to the possible detriment of systematic vocabulary building.  However, a focus on systematic vocab is often to the detriment of practical, usable conversation tools.  I remember a lesson in a beginning textbook that had an American asking if the shopkeeper had a red pencil, a blue pencil, a green pencil, a black pencil, ad nauseum.  It was good vocabulary practice that built on prior lessons... but a really stupid conversation!

On Ken's comment re: helping out Newbies, I remember when I first joined it seemed that there were always one of two more advanced poddies that hung around the Newbie forums fielding questions, usually with a handle that started with "Auntie."  I don't know that anyone's really stepped into that void.

miami_meiguoren,

The problem with rating lessons on how hard you find them is often, at least in my opinion, based on what vocab you may or may not already know. The elementary to intermediate jump is a bit daunting, but the current intermediates are not half as difficult as they used to be, and sometimes I don't even think the vocab is much harder than some elementaries. The trick is to keep pluggin away at it, and it'll eventually just start floating gently into your brain :)

Bababardwan, I agree that it helps if Newbies can aim for a core set of vocab that'll set them up for tackling more random lessons. I think what put me off relearning the basics from random Newbies rather than going to classes, is because that there is no logical progression. You'll hear the words 我 and 你 in a dialogue, but I find it much easier if you just go and learn 他，她，我们，你们，他们 at the same time. For example, take the latest toilet newbie lesson. 蹲 or 那算了 are just words that are daunting to newbies, or at least would be to me, as they are just really random. That stuff is cool to learn once you've got the basics and want to add to it.

I've dug out some notes I did during my course, and it was structured as prounouns, introductions, "where are you from?",  question words, numbers,  这，那,  是，有，在, 都, days and time, family, and then it continues to other similar topics for the majority of the rest of the course (I think these topics were covered in the first two or three lessons). Once you have those basics, it seems like you can apply them to many newbie topics and then it's a case of slotting in new verbs and nouns, and that's where Chinesepod came in for me. I'd stopped and started several times with CPod prior to that. I think I needed the 5 hours of class time to be forced to learn the stuff, rather than 10 mins here, 10 mins there. That is fine later, but it didn't work out for me right at the beginning. I am sure many esteemed poddies did not have this problem, but I can't be the only one. Some kind of Newbie absolute basics module with add-on modules of lessons such as weather, family, shopping, food, leisure and transport and the home would have been so useful. I know it's very school-like, but if you don't want to do the "weather" module, you wouldn't necessarily have to, and it would still be "learning on your terms".

ken,

i joined chinesepod a few months ago as a newbie and am really enjoying it, i did quite a bit of research about online programs before joining cpod and decided it was by far the best tool for me. living in spain i don't have many opportunities to listen to spoken chinese so it's been very helpful, although i do have a few improvements:

i agree with all comments regarding the need for more organisation within all levels with regard to the topic and some sort of number ranking system. i have been trying to find the easier newbie lessons first by listening to the dialogue quickly first before deciding to add it to my study list, but there is a large range of levels within newbie - which is great, but needs organisation. Maybe after clicking on the newbie channel you are then given the option of clicking on what level within newbie you want or you would have the option of choosing newbie lessons with regard to food, family, etc. Having sets of lessons is a good start but needs to be better organised in terms of level.

i also completely agree with the need to have a separate newbie/elly qingwen. i have tried to listen to a few of them, and some have been helpful, but most of them are too difficult with too many explanations in chinese for me.

i think it's great that the lessons don't go into too much detail in terms of grammar, however maybe you could start a grammar channel for those looking for more guidence. the grammar guide is very useful, but it might be nice if you to choose a topic every few weeks to cover, and discuss maybe common mistakes made.

but i think the vocab tour and the menu stealer are great for newbies and all levels, keep up the good work, the website is wonderful!

A lot of good ideas, I specially like bababardwans one concerning levels of newbie, levels of elly, levels of intermediate etc. etc. Maybe CPOD can just have a ranked number system between 1-10 having 1 the simplest and 10 the most difficult. We could browse through the lessons and at a glance determine if that elly lesson is simple or too difficult. Maybe an elly 10 lesson might be around the same level as a Intermediate 1 or 2.
Just the other day I was browsing the lessons and found an early intermediate lesson to be actually do-able at my current level.
If I try anything with John as a host, its way beyond my level. i didn’t know these more simpler Ken/Jenny intermediate (more simplified) lessons even existed.

I'm thinking about these requests for structure while at the same time thinking of the mantra "learning on my terms",and have a thought.There are lists out there that give a frequency order for the different characters,based on how frequently they pop up in different sources like the media.Obviously there is more to language than vocab such as grammar etc,but I just thought it might be a start.If for newbie level,when it came to vocab you decided newbie level was equivalent to the first 100 words [or whatever you thought was appropriate...I really don't know;and once again this could be broken down into smaller levels like low newbie which might be the first 20 or something].Once we have these words defined for each level,then this list would be made available.As one went through the newbie lessons choosing the lessons of interest on your own terms,one saves the selected vocabulary to your vocabulary tab on your me section.This could somehow be checked off against the list required for that level.The improved search function could then be used to find lessons that will introduce one to the remaining vocab for that level.This way one could from a vocab level check that one had the audio,pinyin,and hanzi for the vocab at a particular level,and have a choice of lessons to source learning them from.Perhaps there could even be a premade up list or recommended lists for each vocab word of lessons to find them in.I know this is a very rough kind of idea but I hope it is food for thought and of some value.I would see something like this as only a small part of the solution.

I'm not sure why people quit and I would suspect the best people to ask would be those who actually have quit.My guess would be there are multiple reasons,some of which you can do nothing about and some of which you may be able to make a difference on top of the already excellent job your doing.The former reasons are going to be all those life circumstances like finances,illness,death etc.The latter category are going to be things like time constraints [one of the big advantages of CPod over traditional classes..can't think of too much there to make it more accessible].But I suspect the big one that is addressible is the feeling that it's all too hard,which is where I think feedback and guidance comes in.I think one needs to see that one is making some meaningful progress,and also needs to identify where the problem areas are.It kind of gets back to your question about the problems that newbies have.I suspect that as we're all different learners we're going to struggle to different degrees with different aspects of the language.Ways to assess this could perhaps be looked at further.

@Ken When I started as a Newbie, I found the Intro lessons far too limited, while the catalog of Newbie lessons far too vast and random. As as Newbie, I needed at least some structure. I decided to use Pimsleur as an introduction to Mandarin and then return to Chinesepod after I had completed it. So you could say Ken that I quit Chinesepod at the first step, and returned only when I had completed Pimsleur and other research which laid the groundwork.

Looking back Ken, what I really wanted is someone to explain to me like a two year old, the basics. It's like a child learning to ride a bike, eventually the child goes it alone, but only after it has used stabilizers or a parents hand to guide it, without which, the child may just give up.

What I would have wanted is a small Beginners section, providing a short program of basic language, culture, history and explaining things like Pinyin use versus Character use. A program that had a beginning and an end, giving a sense of achievement and confidence upon completion.

If not then maybe the Welcome lesson could be more prominent on the site, and the Tone Newbie lessons placed with the Intro lessons.

I'd like to finish by saying that although I was dissatisfied with Chinesepod's help as a beginner, now as an elementary user and still studying Newbie lessons, Chinesepod is an absolutely great site and study tool.

Thanks Ken

@honker Have you tried the Guided Plan? I've been using it for almost six months. I find it gives structure while being flexible enough that it doesn't take over my life

I just joined a week ago and I'm loving it but I'm wondering if I'm jumping around too much. I feel like I need to structure my lessons more but I'm uncertain if there is some sort of methodology I should be following.

I do repeat lessons but it would be nice to have some kind of lesson plan or study schedule. Well, something along those lines but nothing too strict. I like how the dialogues are not structured as rigidly as other typical language materials.

Ken,

I know you shouldn't answer a question with a question,but I'd be interested in what you specifically think of some of the above suggestions,which one's are doable and which aren't and what you think some of the newbie pitfalls are and possible solutions.I think bouncing ideas back and forth could lead to something.

Some great observations but I'm still keen to know more. Let me repeat the key questions if I may:

What do we need to do to help Newbies more? Where do they struggle with CPod? What things might cause them to drop out/quit?Where do we need to improve? What advice/suggestions do you have?

Though not a user, I don't object to Twitter per se.  However, I do object to its associated verb, "tweet."  Where did that come from?  Birds singing... short electronic texting... hmmm.

Personally, I think a new verb, "twit," would be much more apropos.  Or maybe we should stick with "tweet" for the verb and use "twit" as a noun for one who tweets on twitter.

OK, this conversation has gone far enough afield.  How do you say "twitter" in Chinese?  Per my friends, the Chinese word for "Twitter" is "Twitter?"  Is this correct?

RJ,

You naughty Puddy-tat! Upsetting all de udder widdle tweety birds like that.

Nah,you know I'm just kidding around too mate.No offense taken at all.I'm just an occasional tweeter, so does each tweet just bring me down a notch in the manliness scale,or is one tweet enough to be fully demoted? [I'm a bit worried that my above two posts were enough to have me fully demoted in their own right;yikes!].Oh well,tweety bird seems such a sweet cheerful companion,I'll be satisfied whatever the verdict,hehe.

Sebire,

I know what I want to say but I wont. Ill keep it to myself. Take care.

does anybody know what the pop song is on the eposde do you have?

RJ, I don't want to be a luddite or anything like that, but unless someone can convince me that Twitter is not just Facebook status on crack, then what's the point?

At least "Facebook" doesn't require a new verb - "to stalk" will suffice.

baba mate,

Im kidding of course. I dont want to offend anyone but its not for me. The name doesnt help, but the problem is, the name fits.

RJ,

I suspect that you have a problem with the name,which doesn't sound too macho I'll agree.But what's in a name? In the words of tweety bird:

"That by which we call a rose,by any other name would smell as tweet".

oh and you said "if Tweeting becomes a really common verb, for example - god forbid". Amen. Real men dont tweet. Thats my position and Im sticking to it. To all the twimps in tweetsville I say, get a life. Sorry.

Sebire, I agree. Cpod has to fullfil the needs of both populations. There is no point in retaining newbies if they become unhappy as they move through the more advanced levels.

Chanelle77, "learning on your terms" is all very well as a concept, but concepts shouldn't get in the way of what actually works. Even if there were Newbie courses, you could still "learn on your terms", except that you would learn 3 or 4 lessons on numbers or weeks or good old "this vs. that" or "where vs. here".

And you're not alone in not knowing what an auxiliary verb or preposition is!

As for QW being aimed for newbies - what do newbies need to know in terms of grammar except SVO? It's once you start getting to the elly/intermediate levels when grammar really starts getting useful. It took me a couple of months to get to a level where QW started becoming useful, and then it was great!

RJ, there will always be more newbies than intermediates and it's good to work to retain them, but if you are one of the newbies that doesn't quit after 3 months, it's nice to have the resources to match. What I want to know is that surely after however many hundreds of Newbie lessons there are, they can start being looped, with occasional new ones if the world really changes that significantly (if Tweeting becomes a really common verb, for example - god forbid). I mean surely no one can listen to the entire newbie back-catalogue and *still* be unable to listen to elementary lessons?

architpol makes a good point. I learn and then I forget. Repetition of old, combined with a little new, is definitely a good thing.

I think Henning and Bababardwan have both brought out some great ideas.  The basic idea of QW to "learn on your own terms" seems to conflict with any idea of structuring lessons, but I believe that learning requires some structure.  I've gone through some two hundred Newbie lessons, and while I felt I learned from each one, there isn't much glue to hold them in my brain.  In the end, I haven't learned as much as I wanted.  The idea of goals or milestones is promising.  Jumps from Newbie to Ele and then to Intermediate almost seem a "bridge too far".  I like the idea of smaller goals.  Perhaps this could be achieved with the use of "learning threads".  This could be series of lessons similar to the beginners series, but expanded.  Common themes in a set of lessons that start simple and build on previous lessons.  Perhaps even jumping to Elementry or beyond (in a very narrow focus).  Having hundreds of Newbie lessons that stand on their own is good in allowing anyone to learn any one of them, but this does not require the learner to build on what was learned before and since I don't speak Chinese everyday, I haven't figured out how to remember the lessons I studied two months ago.  Repitition of words and phrases in threads of four to eight lessons might allow better retention, require a bit more commitment from the student, and still allow the individualism of following your own thread.

miami,

Your point is valid of course. I wasnt implying anything by my question, it was just a question. Two QW's would be wonderful, but Im thinking it may be a resource issue, and they do contain ele material now. I think there is some merit in your comment that QW should be led by a native english speaker, with Chinese support, but the talent pool is what it is at the moment. Its still a fine show and I think they are doing a fantastic job. This thread is about what newbies need so I am sure Ken will take your comments into consideration. Its tough to please everyone and Im guessing there are more newbies than intermediates. Unfortuantely this may be because many of them quit after a short time and are replaced by new short timers.

@rjberki don’t forget everyone learns at a different pace.
I have had limited time in China and only have time to practice at night after work and in my vehicle to and from work. Obviously being immersed into the culture is the best way to learn.
I have been a member of CPOD for almost 2 years and still consider myself NEWB/ELLY level. I have gone over the old QW's numerous times.
I think Henning hit a few good ideas with 2 types of QW's.

I think what newbies need most is a manual on how to study Chinese. How to navigate the site, what tools are available, how to type Chinese chararcters, Where to find a Chinese dictionary and how to use it etc. An introduction to learning Chinese. Heres how you do it. Something they cant miss. As for QW I think they should be, and are somewhat progressive, each lesson should start easy and work up - something for everybody. Dont forget old QW's are still available and there are many newbie lessons. How long does one stay a newbie?

Henning,

I had the same/similar thought about QW and nearly added it.I only refrained because there is only 1 QW per week,and if you did one for each level then that would mean only 1 QW every 5 or 6 weeks and I thought that may not be enough.But yeah,I think your idea is better;just splitting it into a lower and higher level could work.Specifying which level you're then aiming at would not leave people disappointed if they know roughly what to expect.I suspect higher learners too would be happy with the lower level QW's just as many are often still happy to see what they will get out of a newbie lesson,having their expectation bar preset at the right hight.

When I read the comments I sense a need for more structure in the beginning, but isn’t this contradicting Cpod’s core: “learning on your terms” i.e. follow the lessons as you please / suit you needs?
When I started, I missed the structure as Sebire mentioned. What I missed (and now and then miss) was something like a language structure / grammar reference sheet and a quick FAQ Chinese (with the excellent points that Bababardwan mentioned in the beginning). Most of the answer’s are here in content / community, but maybe a bit difficult to find if you just landed here. My idea (or actually 2):

I suggest you could think of making something similar to the excellent pinyin guide (one page / screen & clickable), but than for Chinese language structure / grammar: “the Chinesepod Grammar Chart” (something different than the existing grammar guide): a clickable page with the basic features from Chinese language that leads you to the lessons on that topic and / or one page with a FAQ (with bababardwan’s points): “Everything you wanted to know about Chinese but did not dare to ask (yet)” or whatever ;-).

I am aware of the grammar guide but maybe that is the step after the overview and redirects to that content + matching lessons and threads. As an example: when I saw/see the first page of the grammar tab I have to think hard what a “preposition” and “auxiliary verb” was again and do not immediately know where to start to find what I want to know (I am not a native English speaker so that could be one of the main reasons, but I think I am not alone here and it illustrates the problem). If I have a specific language question / problem or just want to know more (often the case), I sometimes do not know the linguistic term or where to look at all and a simple example or short description in a general overview would maybe help. Same for the language FAQ but on a different level (practical stuff like, write character’s, input, pinyin and so on). Another suggestion is to make this the 6th tab in the “Recources” or “Me” sections? (this not the Cpod general FAQ btw).
The “Grammar Chart” could have a “layered design” similar to Cpod’s levels to suit advancing needs. Think of it as a bit like this and this (see “part of speech and other entry labels”), but then more interactive.

Last, I could not agree more with what Henning said about Pete. I think he is a great addition to the fantastic existing Cpod team.

I think bababardwan made some really excellent points. I wouldn't put those questions in a FAQ though (only the truely desperate read FAQs), but make it a Newbie podcast *series* - a series where you introduce the absolute basics of learning Chinese on the web. And the basics of learning Chinese with this very site.

A structured start of maybe 30 to 40 lessons beyond that 7 podcast demo set. What are characters and how important are they? How does Pinyin work? What about those Popup-Translation addons?

Those lessons could (and should) also refer to existing podcasts (A lesson on the newbie lessons for traveling) - so this series would be some kind of a "meta series". With a cushion of almost 300 Newbie lessons, CPod can easily do this.

A second important insight that I got from here: There are contradicting forces at work. More grammar. Less grammar. Make Qing Wens easier. Make them more challenging. Could there be a way to suit all sides? I would think splitting the Qing Wens would be a way out of the dilemma - QW for Newbie/Elli questions and QW for Intermediate questions. The latter could also come by a different label like "The grammar show".

BTW. I agree that Pete does an excellent job. He is a high-impact addition to this site. A different flavour, for sure. But one that was missing so far.

Hello, my name is Tina, and my Chinese name is 刘文琪(liu2  wen2  qi2)    I am Chinese   And I live in Beijing now

I am glad to help newbies, if you have any question about Chinese, you can send email to me ( bxwenqi@gmail.com)

The Newbie lessons themselves are excellent. However, I feel like there is just something missing. The breadth of content on ChinesePod doesn't really open up until you reach the Upper Elementary-Intermediate level. It would have been nice to have some feature to supplement the Newbie podcasts when I was a Newbie. I know this is just my perception because you guys are open and fair to learners of every level, but when I was a Newbie, I felt a little bit left out.

Also, whining like "I miss Amber" isn't helpful. Yes, people feel the need to complain and want to feel that they are being heard. Have a separate link to post complaints and respond to them in a timely fashion. But I know from my medical practice, employee turnover is a reality.

I will enthusiastically second this. The whining in the Qing Wen comments is out of control. And when I say "whining", I'm not referring to the constructive criticism. We have people constantly pining for the "good old days", personally insulting the current hosts, and even casting aspersions on CPod for "driving Amber away."

Basically as a newb I used to have 4 lessons.
newbie (which I can not emphasize how great they are)
elly (some can be extremely challenging)
Qing Wen and the old D.A. (both amazing)

now we have just newb and elly. 
i used to get so much out of qing wen, now it’s become more of an intermediate class.

Please take this as constructive criticism.

I’ve really wanted to voice my opinion on this but did not know where to begin. It’s all about the team who is giving the lessons. How the teachers are teamed up. All of cpod teachers have their strengths.

The difference with qing wen before and qing wen now is that there was a dominate native English speaker as the main voice before. Now we have a native Chinese speaker as the main voice. You cannot compete with Jenny, her personality is too strong, which is not a bad thing, she’s an amazing teacher as everyone knows. But as a native Chinese speaker she doesn’t think of the angles that a native English speaking Chinese teacher would. Like Ken does or Amber used to...
for example, I heard Ken talk about shoulders and wings the other day jiānbǎng and chìbǎng.
wow!! i won’t forget that. It just stuck.
It’s just that the native English speaking Chinese teacher has been where I am and they can relate with things that helped him or her on their own journey.

As far as Pete, he's a Chinese scholar way beyond my understanding. His poem are fun to listen to, but I just don’t get that much out of them. I have only heard John (when Ken is sick) on a few lessons because Intermediate is beyond my level.

It used to work so well for us dummies that didn’t understand Connie when she said her lines that Amber or JP and even Clay would ask. How do you say such and such Connie and she would answer.
But now instead of 2 dominate native English speaking teachers we have one who’s smarter than all of them who gets pushed to the backseat.

I think part of improving the newb experience on cpod is bring back a more basic qing wen. Poems with Pete is way beyond the newb level as well so really we have 2 lessons newb and elly. Please take these comments as constructive criticism and from someone who really loves Chinese pod.

Miami Meiguoren

Just expanding on my comment about assessment and motivation.Of course just like in martial arts where at the end of the day it doesn't matter what belt you are,it is how well you can defend yourself in a real life situation that is going to count,in this case at the end of the day how effective you are in communicating [and from the cultural side of things avoiding being a fluent fool as you've pointed out Ken] is what is going to matter and not what level of Chinese learner you are or what assessment you can pass.But I think if you did have assessments [of all aspects of the language ,though of course spoken would be a bit more involved] then not only is that motivating,something to aim for one step at a time,but it may actually end up being worth something someday.I realise there is the HSK and all that,but I looked at that site,and as far as I can see I'd have to travel interstate for that and that would involve a lot of time and expense that I couldn't justify.If nothing else,it could be good preparation for such a test.It could even be broken down into sections.You could even get to print out a certificate for say passing your ellie listening comprehension section.There could be smaller steps,like low ellie,middle ellie,high ellie.You could start with a low newbie level that used material only found in the 6 introductory lessons.I don't think that would take too long to be in position to pass and thus very early in the piece you have this positive feedback and acknowledgement in the form of a certificate that you are actually getting somewhere.Imagine that.I realise this is not going to be everyone's cup of tea,but hopefully for some others it would provide a good gauge of where they're at and motivation for something to aim at,and may focus where they need to improve more.I also agree with the comments about feedback of comments written in Chinese ,but I realise this is labour intensive and you have to work out where to put your resources and it looks like you've already started heading down that track in the activity stream.Good start.

Premium membership:

I would like to see a short series of lessons each Dialogue showing patterns using common phrases than can be recognized as patterns.

About grammar and structure.

I am happy that a lot of what I learned was not structured.  For example, the "de" "ne" and "le" need not be explained to me as a Newbie.  I "accepted" them.  hehe

My point is that I can now read a Chinese Grammar book and understand the "grammar points."  My opinion about me as a learner is that starting with grammar would have bogged me down.  I would have been too troubled about getting things exactly right.  

But, as you say, it is Chinese on My Terms and I had the opportunity to make selections that suited my own learning style.

Sincerely,

Teacher Albert

When I was a Newbie, it took me hours and hours of listening just before I could hear the language.  My point is that hearing the rhythm of the language clearly is of paramount importance to the Newbie.

Now I find the Newbie quiet easily; elementary is where I am and Intermediate is where I am very challenged and would like to be.

Teacher Al

Shenzhen, CN

Nothing keeps people coming back to something if they love it; they feel successful; ie they have a perception of success.

Someone once said "Nothing breeds success like success."

Make the Newbie feel successful by structuring things so the possibility of success is probable.

I believe that to continue with the rate of speech, or pace if you will as moderate.  

The tones and rhythm of the language must be clear.  This is an old issue, really.  I do not want to dig up the past.  But, I strongly believe that the Newbie needs to hear very clearly each dialogue. I think Jenny does a super  job.  

Let me just say this from experience.  When I first started learning Chinese I an an extremely difficult time mimicking the lexical chunks (as you call them). 

I do love CPod and found that after over two years I have learned to cope with the quicker speeds.  But, I think especially pace is important to the Newbie. 

You would have laughed your head off listening to me try to say some of what I now find quiet easy.

Also, if the Newbie is a premium member, then those items should reflect a moderate pace.

Just my two cents from experience.  Remember a Newbie is just a baby.  But, the baby wants to learn in a hurry.

hehe

With respect,

Teacher Al

Shenzhen, CN

I disagree with synesthasia88 as I think the chatter helps and really takes off the pressure to remember so much information when you're just starting to learn a language for the first time.

When I discovered ChinesePod, I was frustrated with the apparent lack of structure to the learning (I was always used to textbooks and formal courses) and so I was a little unconvinced about progressing with CPod.  However, I eventually found the five introductory lessons which were helpful and I progressed from there.

It would be great if CPod had a static page of "20 phrases you must know" or something similar because as a newbie, I felt quite intimidated that I would venture on to the site and find a lesson on e.g. "Newbie: Chinese Breakfast" without first knowing how to count or say the days of the week. 

But I love the site and the ability to choose lessons on what I'm interested in rather than what comes next in the textbook.

I agree with the comments above about an FAQ section that will help a newbie get started.

Hi Ken

As a Cpod newbie living down under & visiting china on business only a couple of times a year I don't  have the opportunity of interacting often with the chinese community or even listening to Chinese being spoken in everyday life situations. My progress therefore is quite slow and i am eager to speed it up! I feel that having access to some comprehension type passages and excercises on each topic which we could listen to (in the resources section) would be helpful in speeding up progress.

thanks.

synesthasia88, I think the chatter acts as a mnemonic for many of us here.  Plus, Ken's and Jenny's delightful chatter makes the lesson much more enjoyable...much better than a traditional (boring) classroom.

I think the newbie lessons could stand to be more directed and focused.  Less pointless chatter and more direct language instruction.

Honest truth is that I was a newbie back in early 2006, and I found that I struggled with the lack of structure a lot so that I never really got going until I took a 13 week course at university. Bear in mind also that I had learnt Chinese when I was a child, so for me that course was really a refresher course. There is a newbie "set" now, though? I found that I needed that clump of knowledge of basic verbs, pronouns, common nouns, QW and numbers 1-10 to get going. Then after that, Chinesepod was great. Until that point, Cpod was just a bit too random for me to get going.

First off, I love Chinese Pod, and I tell everyone about the site, who is interested in learning Mandarin. (How's that for gushing?)

A Table of contents of the Newbie (and others) lessons would be very helpful. Isn't that possible?

I like Babawardan's suggestions about a centralized FAQ section with a links to helpful sites (online dictionaries, etc.). I recently figured out Chinese characters on Ubuntu which I had installed on my laptop. I am still having troubles with my Windows box.

Some gentle comment moderation needs to happen. If someone asks, a question in the newbie section that is entirely in hanzi without translation, one could copy and paste the question to a more appropriate thread and answer it there and then provide a link to it. People would get the hint (or send a private message if they don't).

Also, whining like "I miss Amber" isn't helpful. Yes, people feel the need to complain and want to feel that they are being heard. Have a separate link to post complaints and respond to them in a timely fashion. But I know from my medical practice, employee turnover is a reality.

Hopefully, that is helpful. The positives of Chinesepod definitely by far outweigh the negatives.

as mentioned above, chinesepod provides an invaluable resource for almost any situation, this i believe is chinesepod's greatest asset. the community section and the newly created activity stream are also very beneficial. however i think they can be improved by providing more feedback.

i'm harping i know, but generally most people write the way that they would speak. i think most people would agree with that. that said it makes sense to provide corrections to poddies chinese posts and comments on the activity stream. nothing beats having your own comments corrected for you to study, and this in turn will encourage more people to utilize these functions.

at a guess, i would say most poddies are working and not studying formally. who is going to correct them? the newbie and ele levels need special attention to provide a good base from which to progress.

having said all this, i do realise that if one wants to pay the extra then all is good. i guess the market must dictate where resources are allocated. however, i would suggest that keeping new learners would be a priority, they may in turn decide that the service is great s reflected in their progression and understanding and therefore may choose to upgrade.

just by two bob's worth, or three.

You just have to have a product for every kind of Newbie, and you are almost there. The The Canton Fair Survival Guide is a great example of what would help.

• If I want to learn Chinese to go for a business trip that really requires no Chinese I want to say Hello, Thanks, and all things going well - gānbēi.
• If I want to impress my girlfriend's mother, then I need some family and relationship type lessons.
• If I want to supplement my study - I am really going to need to drill down a bit of structure.
• If I want to learn Chinese to adopt a child, I really need all those baby talk lessons.
• If I am in a country village in the North East teaching English, and I realise a little bit too late that I need Chinese lessons then I really need everything and fast.
• I may have a specific task (e.g. a traumatic ticket office encounter is imminent) and I don't want to stand for 12 hours.

The thing about lessons every week is they need not have any obvious progression. I should be able to take any lesson my level as my first lesson. At the same time, they next 10 lessons could be completely irrelevant for me.

Your archive, to me, is your greatest asset. I would love to see playlists, a radio, better metadata (I would happily tag lessons).

I think the interaction with the presenters/staffers is a huge benefit. The comments are half of the brilliance of chinesepod. I would love to see nested comments, so I could follow a conversation that develops. And although I play on the site a lot - the community conversations part is a bit confusing to me...

If there is a large dropout, I assume there are a million people that only know Cpod through iTunes, and the main challenge would be to get them through the door. Things like that could be achieved by promoting the Menu Stealer series on the podcast. It is already really easy to signup - so I can imagine that would draw a few in.

Hope that was worth the read :)

hey ken,

i think that a solid foundation in grammatical sentence structure will allow students to progress more quickly and prevent bad habits becoming ingrained and therefore much more difficult to 'fix' later on. i think more feedback on newbie and ele posts and the activity stream would be invaluable.

i don't know the dropout rate you guys have at the newbie level but i'm sure with extra input into the above areas newbie students will gain a more solid foundation and thus be reluctant to look elsewhere, or simply give up. great for business, great for the students.

that said, students of all levels must be pro-active with their study. chinesepod is a great tool,i wish it was around ten years ago when i was a newbie at uni, but it shouldn't be relied on as the only method of study.

Hi, Ken,

I started from scratch six months ago, and progress so far is good - happily working through elementary lessons at the moment, and the occasional intermediate as well. In general, I think that CPod does wonders at the newbie level, and I'm not sure that I have much in the way of suggestions as to how things could be improved: there simply has been no struggle. It has been pleasure all the way!

Perhaps it might be good to have a complete newbie's guide to CPod - say a one page overview - for when people register, as I didn't really get the hang of everything that CPod can do for a few weeks. But other than that, I can't think of anything, other than to say keep up the exceptional work.

Best wishes,

Will

Ken,

The first thing that springs to mind is the frequent questions that pop up again and again scattered over the boards that are just repeats of questions asked elsewhere.I think it would be good to have all these faq's put together in one place like the help section.They are the one's that address things like:

How do I write Chinese characters?

How do I read Chinese characters?

How do I input pinyin?

What are some good online dictionaries?

Popup translators;tips and warnings.

Why aren't the characters showing up.All I see is question marks?

...etc,etc.

I tried to start a group to address this but it got buried and never really got off the ground and besides I'm not sure a group was the best place for it anyway.I think questions like this should still be asked on the boards where clarification is needed but it would be great to have one place where a newbie can refer to.Perhaps CPod could put together the best answers possible with a list of options where applicable,and perhaps there could be a comments section below this where users could then ask further questions or more experienced Poddies could post further suggestions.

There have been several excellent posts along these lines but they end up getting buried.I think if you had the resources,digging some of them up and collating them would be a good place to start.

I realise some of this is already there but I think it could be expanded upon.

The other thought that pops to mind is something that can help one guage one's progress a bit better.I'd love to see more testing available for those who respond to this sort of motivation.I think people can get discouraged if they feel like they aren't making progress,but if you could break the progress down into baby steps so people can see for themselves that ,hey, they are ahead of where they were last week or last month then I think that would help.A bit like belts in a martial arts system,it provides positive feedback.