Obama and China
xiaophil
February 11, 2010, 03:35 AM posted in General DiscussionOkay, first of all, I want to make sure I'm clear: I'm not asking people's personal opinions about Obama as I hope to keep this related to China on some level, and I hope I don't start something too inflamatory. Really.
What I am asking is this, has anyone noticed that the China seems to be disproportionately against Obama? If you have, why do you think this is happening? Have any of you talked to Chinese people about him?
I have been reading Chinese news in English and Chinese lately. It seems like Obama is often being shed in a bad light. Take this poll where qq.com asks its readers if the American people are too harsh on Obama. One, the poll doesn't even give an option to say 'I'm not sure'. Two, 66% of Chinese people think that Obama is a bad president and only 9% think he is good? Do enough Chinese really know enough about Obama to express such fairly solid disapproval against him? Again, I'm not just refering to this poll. I have seen numerous Chinese articles that paint him as a bad guy, I've seen foreign articles about Chinese leaders snubbing him (see Copenhagen) and I remember just how relatively disinterested Chinese media seemed when he came to China.
Now, parts of me waver between all of these ideas from time to time:
- US presidents will always generate mass Chinese disapproval when they make an arms sale to Taiwan, not to mention announcing a meeting with the Dalai Lama. Things will clear up after awhile, and it isn't personal against Obama.
- China isn't stupid. They have looked at what Obama has done and aren't impressed.
- China simply realizes it has more political muscle, and so now is using it. Obama just happens to be the unlucky president who first has to deal with this on this level.
- China smells blood around Obama and so is going for the kill.
- You're dreaming Phil. China always acts this way towards US presidents.
- Gulp, and I really hesitate saying this, perhaps there are some racism issues going on here.
So any ideas? I really am not tryint rake muck. I just have been really, really curious as to why I have been seeing this. It seems like Bush got a free pass for the most part, and many people loved taking the opportunity to dig into him.
PS: I purposely kept obscure the distinction between the Chinese government and the Chinese people. Don't feel you need to do so.
xiaophil
I doubt there will be anything terribly explosive either. I know some people are looking out for the clash of world powers, i.e. US/USSR style. The big difference between this situation and the one before is as you mentioned, economic interdependence.
xiaophil
February 12, 2010, 09:53 PMThanks for reply. I really like hearing from Chinese themselves on these (and actually any) kinds of topics. If you are still here to see this, I would like to ask a couple of questions.
Firstly, I'm curious, do you feel that Obama is getting more criticism than other US presidents? (After all, an arms sale to Taiwan is not unusual.) If yes, why? Is it simply an overall change in the mentality of the Chinese people? Or is there something about Obama that really especially bothers them?
Secondly, Obama has been speaking out against Chinese censorship. Is this something you feel the average educated Chinese person is aware of? If yes, do they see it as meddling, or are they grateful, or are they indifferent?
Tal
February 11, 2010, 05:07 AMAs for your points 1 to 6, I'd say 'all of the above'.
Specifically:
1. Yeah, business as usual. The arms sale to Taiwan would have been in the pipeline from long before Obama became Pres, and Dubya met the DL too I think. Fundamentally Chinese attitudes to the US are unchanged, it's still a mixture of envy, distrust and resentment.
2. Seems the Chinese leadership have decided though that Obama is more serious about opposing them than recent occupants of the White House. He did speak out against internet censorship on his recent visit here, and the recent Google fracas seems to go hand in hand with that. China also resents the US insistence that the 元 is undervalued, 对吧?
3. China wants to be seen as a 'great power', not content to turn the other cheek any more. And the great oil game is still a-brewing as production peaks around the world. Time to strut a little, show the seriousness of intent.
4. And it's much easier to do that when the enemy leader is facing a backlash of criticism at home for failing miserably at turning water into wine and having pies rain down from heaven. Good to distract the home crowd too.
5. As per #1.
6. Of course! 'Nuff said.
xiaophil
Yeah, five and one are about the same, aren't they? Haha.
Seriously, I'm glad you commented on each. I especially thought about your reply to number two, more specifically the censorship part. I remember Bush would make a point of commenting on China's lack of religious freedom back during his time. At the time I often wondered what his motives were. Yes, he seems to be genuinely religious, so he probably, or at least maybe, was sincere on that part. But then again, perhaps his advisers told him, "Hey George, most Chinese people don't give a crap about religion, so the Chinese government probably won't get too upset because the issue falls flat with most Chinese." So in this way, Dubya looked looked tough to Americans and didn't cause much of a problem for the Chinese government. Not a bad deal for both sides. But this censorship thing. Yeah, that's sensitive.
xiaophil
February 11, 2010, 05:32 AMYeah, five and one are about the same, aren't they? Haha.
Seriously, I'm glad you commented on each. I especially thought about your reply to number two, more specifically the censorship part. I remember Bush would make a point of commenting on China's lack of religious freedom back during his time. At the time I often wondered what his motives were. Yes, he seems to be genuinely religious, so he probably, or at least maybe, was sincere on that part. But then again, perhaps his advisers told him, "Hey George, most Chinese people don't give a crap about religion, so the Chinese government probably won't get too upset because the issue falls flat with most Chinese." So in this way, Dubya looked looked tough to Americans and didn't cause much of a problem for the Chinese government. Not a bad deal for both sides. But this censorship thing. Yeah, that's sensitive.
bodawei
February 11, 2010, 06:08 AM@Xiaophil
I am wondering about the survey wording itself - it is kind of weird wording and I think that it is ambiguous.
Is it really asking for their assessment of Oobama as you suggest? It seems to be asking whether the polls are fair or not. I think that most Chinese people would not be able to process such a question.
My own response would be that 50% approval rating at this stage seems pretty damn good. What is the history of approval ratings mid-term?
As for the third option (25%) I am not sure how to interpret this at all - hard question for Americans much less the Chinese.
I don't think you should read anything much into the survey.
bababardwan
ah bodawei,you're a man after my own heart.I can't read the survey currently but am a big believer in looking carefully how such things are conducted and interpreting with caution.Of course you can always get the answer you want if you couch the question a certain way.Great to see you around btw :)
xiaophil
Yes! The wording is strange and ambiguous... and that brings up something I was thinking, namely, It seems to me the survey was purposely designed so that Chinese people will naturally say something negative about Obama. (Perhaps that is just my American bias, though.)
bodawei
Hi Barbs. Yeah, to turn that around, the ability to write a survey question that produces a reliable answer is a rare skill indeed. (Thanks for the greetings.)
bababardwan
February 11, 2010, 06:18 AMah bodawei,you're a man after my own heart.I can't read the survey currently but am a big believer in looking carefully how such things are conducted and interpreting with caution.Of course you can always get the answer you want if you couch the question a certain way.Great to see you around btw :)
changye
February 11, 2010, 06:26 AMDo you want to see "The President of the United States who is loved and welcomed by an autocratic state"?
xiaophil
Well, that's a tough question to answer. How about I just say the following. I have talked to many Chinese people about many a subject regarding the government. I rarely am the type to try to instigate anti-government sentiments, yet they sometimes bring it up on their own initiative, and oddly enough, I am sometimes the one who has to say, "Hey now, let's not get carried away with politics." Anyway, I have noticed that there are some issues that Chinese reliably stand behind their government and others they just bear it but don't believe in it. So if the Chinese government seems to be against Obama, I'm not too interested. However, if both the government and the people seem to have the same sentiments in mind, I have to wonder what is going on to cause this unity?
changye
Hi xiaophil
The answer is very simple. The PRC government and its people can happily cooperate with each other mainly only when rebutting/rebuffing foreign people and nations.
xiaophil
changye
Sadly, my anecdotal evidence suggests that this is true. In some ways I can't blame them. Up until recent times, foreign intervention hasn't been in China's best interest. I wish they would lighten up a bit more. A healthy amount of skepticism is good, but It's not as if China has risen in recent decades solely on her own. Where would she be without foreign investment?
hamshank
It's weird just how different cultures can divide in a relatively short space of time. I never hear these kind of things in Taiwan. In fact it seems very pro-west in general.
xiaophil
Yes. An even clearer example would be the two Koreas.
I'm just curious, and I want to emphasize I don't want to get CPod in trouble, so I wouldn't want to argue against the mainland here, but anyway, do you see any general consensus that Taiwanese have towards the mainland in any respect?
hamshank
Well, that's an interesting question.....Most people I have met have fairly low opinion of the Chinese and consider themselves Taiwanese first, but that's not to say that all dislike China. I do hear some occasional supportive comments and heated discussions.
Having said all that, most people I have met are Taiwanese through many generations and do not have ancestors that arrived here after the civil war, so maybe that has something to do with it?!?
In the office I work, I can also say that President Ma is unpopular throughout. We often Joke about putting a picture of the president up to a barrage of complaints! Read into that what you will.....
Korean and Japanese culture are very popular here too....in fact the island was under Japanese rule in the early part of the 20th century.
Other people may have other stories but that's they way I have seen things in the couple of months I have been here.
xiaophil
Thanks for letting me know. I haven't met many people who have lived in Taiwan, so it's nice to get direct insight.
xiaophil
February 11, 2010, 04:47 AMI doubt there will be anything terribly explosive either. I know some people are looking out for the clash of world powers, i.e. US/USSR style. The big difference between this situation and the one before is as you mentioned, economic interdependence.
bodawei
February 11, 2010, 06:28 AMHi Barbs. Yeah, to turn that around, the ability to write a survey question that produces a reliable answer is a rare skill indeed. (Thanks for the greetings.)
xiaophil
February 11, 2010, 06:52 AMWell, that's a tough question to answer. How about I just say the following. I have talked to many Chinese people about many a subject regarding the government. I rarely am the type to try to instigate anti-government sentiments, yet they sometimes bring it up on their own initiative, and oddly enough, I am sometimes the one who has to say, "Hey now, let's not get carried away with politics." Anyway, I have noticed that there are some issues that Chinese reliably stand behind their government and others they just bear it but don't believe in it. So if the Chinese government seems to be against Obama, I'm not too interested. However, if both the government and the people seem to have the same sentiments in mind, I have to wonder what is going on to cause this unity?
hamshank
February 12, 2010, 01:58 AMWell, that's an interesting question.....Most people I have met have fairly low opinion of the Chinese and consider themselves Taiwanese first, but that's not to say that all dislike China. I do hear some occasional supportive comments and heated discussions.
Having said all that, most people I have met are Taiwanese through many generations and do not have ancestors that arrived here after the civil war, so maybe that has something to do with it?!?
In the office I work, I can also say that President Ma is unpopular throughout. We often Joke about putting a picture of the president up to a barrage of complaints! Read into that what you will.....
Korean and Japanese culture are very popular here too....in fact the island was under Japanese rule in the early part of the 20th century.
Other people may have other stories but that's they way I have seen things in the couple of months I have been here.
tvan
February 12, 2010, 02:24 PMI imagine most of you have seen this but, for you SNL-ophiles, here is a video from Saturday Night Live mocking Obama in the context of a joint press conference with Hu Jintao. You have to scroll down a little to get to the video.
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/11/23/snl-mocks-obama-china-trip-features-palin-and-gore/
Hopefully this site isn't blocked in China. As the comments re: Taiwan's president indicate, in a democracy your harshest critics are your constituents.
P.S. - If anyone knows how to embed this video, please do so. I tried an failed.
bababardwan
tvan,
Thanks for the link which sounds interesting but when I go on it,where the video should play a message pops up saying ....sorry,currently our video library can only be streamed within the United States.I presume that's also why you had trouble embedding the video.
Edit:I've also searched for it from other sources and found 7 other sources which all result in a similar message.Doh!
aiqingpingshen
February 12, 2010, 08:59 PMInteresting, I have something to say on this topic. Given the fact that the pres of the united stated is a rare topic among Chinese, I know little about what other Chinese people think about him. Just my personal opinions that I'm talking about.
First of all, there is no doubt that president obama is much less popular in China then he was a year ago. Many Chinese are against him without even knowing his policies. That's totally understandable: things like healthcare reform and deficit cuts do not have a direct impact on our daily life . So we just don't know(or don't care) if these plans work and would not base our judgement of Mr.obama on these issues. The majar concern of Chinese people is his China policy. Honestly, Mr obama didn't do a good job when it comes to maintaint a smooth sino-america relationship. An arm sale to Taiwan is the least thing China wants to see, not to mention the Dalai lama issue.
Negative opinions for Mr.obama might have something to do with the education Chinese people recieved. I remember that while I was in high school (2000-2003), what I learned was that all american presidents are in the pockets of the big companies regardless of their skin colors and which party they came from. This idea is widely accepted by Chinese people in my age. I don't know if that is still the case for younger generation.
I do not agree with the point 6, strongly. I've seen tons Mr.obama's speech since he began his campaign. I have to admit that his speech is really inspiring and really got me. Just can't image someone would dislike a charming figure like Mr.obama because of his....skin color?
PS: That poll is truly wierd. I don't know what the 3rd option is supposed to mean even if Chinese is my first language.
xiaophil
Thanks for reply. I really like hearing from Chinese themselves on these (and actually any) kinds of topics. If you are still here to see this, I would like to ask a couple of questions.
Firstly, I'm curious, do you feel that Obama is getting more criticism than other US presidents? (After all, an arms sale to Taiwan is not unusual.) If yes, why? Is it simply an overall change in the mentality of the Chinese people? Or is there something about Obama that really especially bothers them?
Secondly, Obama has been speaking out against Chinese censorship. Is this something you feel the average educated Chinese person is aware of? If yes, do they see it as meddling, or are they grateful, or are they indifferent?
bababardwan
February 12, 2010, 09:04 PMtvan,
Thanks for the link which sounds interesting but when I go on it,where the video should play a message pops up saying ....sorry,currently our video library can only be streamed within the United States.I presume that's also why you had trouble embedding the video.
Edit:I've also searched for it from other sources and found 7 other sources which all result in a similar message.Doh!
xiaophil
February 11, 2010, 06:27 AMYes! The wording is strange and ambiguous... and that brings up something I was thinking, namely, It seems to me the survey was purposely designed so that Chinese people will naturally say something negative about Obama. (Perhaps that is just my American bias, though.)
catherinem
February 11, 2010, 03:58 AMInteresting post, xiaophil. I have a couple of thought about this.
First, I think it's important to recognize that a lot of Chinese people, at least the ones I spoke with about Obama, really supported him when he was elected. Even a girl at my nail salon said, "他这么帅！你们美国人太幸运了!" This, of course, says nothing of his politics. But my point is that a lot of people were happy to see a new face in the US capitol, and his affable demeanor and enthusiasm towards the rest of the world came off really well here and elsewhere.
After a year in the White House (and with Hillary working on implementing his foreign policy around the world) I think the government in China is now very much aware that many of Obama's policies don't favor China - the arms sale, as you mentioned, as well as the Dalai Lama's visit and Clinton and Obama's comments on freedom of speech.
I don't think it's coincidental that the government's frustration with Obama has come to be felt by many average Chinese people. I think the road ahead for Sino-American relations will be a rocky one, but because of the economic interdependence between the two countries, we won't be seeing anything too explosive. My 2 cents.