Do schools kill creativity?

I want to make sure this post stays in view. For it is good!

Take for instance, Einstein, here's a guy that spent an enormous amount of time studying out-of-band to the academic production system...studying physics and math books... Ironically, If you went by the school system measurement of academic acheivement..they would have said Einstein is a C student and unsuitable for any empolyment other than floor sweeper... yet, he's one of the greatest scientists of our time... So I think, one of the problems with the education system is that there is zero acknowledgement for out-of-band learning... such things are punished by production systems such as GPA...creative exploration and learning are de-incentivised, and routine and conformed learning incentivised in their place...

Ron: the technical term in Chinese is: 漏水 Ken: I don't dare to comment on this one. To me the topic seems to be too heavily influenced by national schooling policies, national culture, the organizational culture of the individual schools, regional and infrastructural influences (rural vs. city!), individual people etc. etc. In my opinion the systematic and relevant attack on creativity comes at the work place. It is called "day to day business" (this includes seemingly "creative jobs"). Ever seen this movie: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0365748/ ?

I have one major problem with Sir Ken Robinsons argument and that is that he seems to focus on the 'Arts' as the creative subject which I think is absolutely not true. In my opinion sciences for example are extremely creative since they are the ones who create peoples dreams a reality - i.e. invisibility cloaks. When I was at school I hated art and graphics (English too) but what I did love to do was make things out of metal so naturally I took a more technical route through school and ultimately into Computing. Within this context I was allowed to design and create anything that I wanted within the timeframes of the projects. I think one of the biggest issue with the education system (at least within the UK) is the decreasing number of apprenticeships! These days you need to get a BA or BSc and then get a grad-scheme in order to get a well paying career. Within my local area Mr Dyson (vacuum cleaner guy) is looking to open a school for 11-18 yr olds to encourage and nurture engineering talent. This is what is needed but remember there are ~1000 students at secondary schools here so you need to cater to everyone's needs and not everyone likes these 'creative' subjects. Be flexible and have a more open ended syllabus might go someway to encourage creativity within the classroom. I have to say though there is one point that I really agree with and that is to encourage people to take risks and to learn from their failures because you can be pretty sure most people will learn from their failures

Henning, Corporations tend to view each individual as a component in a virtual assembly line will kill off creativity. So those in charge of the bottom line don't like creative people but they themselves will say that they are innovators because they put "creative" processes in place to improve efficiency and the bottom-line. Art

Artkho, I think that you hit the nail right on the head. I see people coming out of universities these days who don't have the basic skills and common sense of a college prep high school student of forty years ago. Then, the corporations go and hire them "because they have a college degree" and will march to the beat of the company drum. Skills that used to be learned in the home or by working after school and courtesy that used to be learned in church are falling by the wayside. More and more people are becoming corporate automatons who succeed more because of their color, their surname, their golf score, and how they fit the corporate image. Schools no longer focus on the needs of the student. They focus more on the needs of the teachers and the school board and of parents who are more interested in a good babysitter who is politically correct. I am from a generation who experienced corporal punishment in the schoolroom. It did not seem like such a good idea to me at the time but somehow it does now :)

Ken Robinsion makes some interesting points. I agree with mrdtait that you cannot reduced creativity to arts. Creativity is not limited toone specific subjects but can find expression anywhere. If we allow it to flourish. Having observed how students learn in (Western) China - a lot or rota learning and never dare to question the teacher - I think the Western schooling system at least trains students to think for themselves and not simply accept what the teachers teach. I may have an idealistic view of our school system, but I am so often amazed how things that are stated as truth, especially if it comes from "learned" people is simply accepted with none or very little room given to actually discuss or question an idea.

Is that guy Max Headroom?

Ken- On one site that I lurk on, people just write 'bump' to keep something in view, in case you hadn't heard that.

as sparechange, I haven't viewed the video(s) yet so I will comment on the comments, many of them I agree with. As far as creativity in French schools, I'd say it stops being in focus after kindergarten, to resume at graduate level, and only in some universities. Whether it's an issue in the corporate world remains to be seen, from a career ladder perspective I really don't think it is. In my company they have this amazing oxymoron of encouraging "prudent risk-taking", so much for creativity which I think isn't separable from a certain amount thereof. As to schools no longer focusing on the needs of the student, this again may be very culture-dependent but I never experienced much of the former, other than learning to work hard. That maybe the biggest contribution of education systems in this country (and that is fast vanishing too). Otherwise, I'd be interested to know how much of one learns at school comes in handy in the workplace, being so focused on 'technical' content as opposed to 'people skills'. A good example is teamwork, everyone being measured on their own performance whereas at work it's rather hard to operate alone, apart for some privileged jobs - I guess this is country-dependent again

Some kids will exude creativity in any environment, and blossom in one that fosters it. Other kids have to work hard to get it, and some, well, we're going to rely on them to do the less creative work without complaining later in life. I've seen classrooms in alternative schools that emphasised creativity, to the delight of most of the kids and parents, while a few differently talented kids failed miserably at that kind of class and lost self esteem as a result. It's always risky when some educational idea seems so good, that someone might get swept away with passion for that idea and apply it in its extreme form to all.

I agree with AuntieSue: We can't be all dancers. Don't even try imagining me as a dancer - you might suffer serious brain-damage. There are lots of those who are outstandingly professional, efficient, and diligent but by character not creative. We need those more than ever in a changing world. Because having Ideas is simply not sufficient. There are thousands of ideas floating around. Problem is realizing them under real world constraints. To come back to the "creativity" issue: The most creative environment I found in my high school (although a huge portion of the content taught and discussed was irrelevant). Afterwards it went downhill.

The video and the ideas are very good, but I noticed a lot of the time when he talked of "creativity" what he seemed to be getting at was allowing kids to express their "diversity". They can amount to the same thing, but sometimes they are mutually exclusive. I hope my accountant got there by expressing his own particular style of diversity and isn't a closet creative :-) On the other hand my motor mechanic's creativity has saved me a fortune. The main problem with schools seems to be the fixed range of subjects taught, which prevents many students from following their own particular talents. On that point I think we all agree, though it's hard to think of an economically viable solution for all. Perhaps the best we could do would be to narrow the subjects down to a few of the basics, teach that during 50% of the week, and use the rest of the time for options like dancing, philosophy, kicking the heads of the opposite team, or drilling for speed in calculus. It's still going to be expensive to provide sufficient diversity to discover what fits each student and then follow through.

finally got to watch that video, 'Sir' Ken Robinson certainly is a great speaker

You might all find this interesting, but I'm adding this particularly to address mrdtait's comment above. I agree that the need for creativity isn't limited to what tends to be called "creative subjects" any more than rote repetition will turn you into a good mathematician or physicist. Basically, I think it's always a mistake to see subjects taught in schools as completely separate from one another, and the programmes in different classes should build on each other. Goulniky- Your comment about people skills reminded me of an interview I recently heard, with the head of Denmark's military academy. He was telling about how the programmes have had to be adjusted for soldiering in a post Cold War world where intra-state conflicts are more prevalent and often involve non-military participants. He said that a lot of the older military academy curriculum no longer applied well to this kind of setting, but that he was proud of how well Danish soldiers were evaluated in terms of creating links to the local community, establishing trust by all parties in peace keeping operations, and how good they were at getting warring parties to try to work together at the local level. This, he said, didn't come from their training in the military academy, but from Danish kindergartens' emphasis on conflict resolution and peaceful coexistence.

I agree! There's very little room for development of the creative spirit within the machines of mass-production... I liken the educational system of today as some type of animal cookie factory...stamping out animal cookies one after the other...all in the same varity of shapes and sizes... sure you have elephant and monkey cookies... lion and tiger cookies... but...never anything that's not already on the cover of the box! its all cookie cutter education!! Still, one has to at least acknowledge that aquiring the tools of creativity need not be creative in themselves... knowing how to hit the nail with the hammer is not particularly creative...much like the routine drills of mathematics and logic are out right dull, mechanical drudgery! ...(and often better left to a computer once mastered!!) Obviously, its what you do with these tools, that is where the creativity starts... even a system of mass-produced learning has some merits upto a certain-level as an enabler of higher-creativity by providing the tools of empowerment... one can only hope that you have not become so pacified by this over mechanization of thought confirmity and so paralyzed by the contraints of academic production, that you in-turn strangle your creative passions...killing them off one-by-one as valueness because they are not assigned an academic weight towards GPA, the grand measurement of all academic conformity...and weight of all weights...

I had trouble viewing the video, so I'll just comment on the comments. I agree with mrdtait. Speaking as an "artist," I believe creativity is a skill which can be developed and utilized in virtually any discipline. There is a common misconception that since I do a lot of "artistic" things, I must have just been lucky enough to be born creative. Not true. I have busted my tail to learn how to do this stuff, and you can too. The owner of the company I work for would agree also. I believe one of the main reasons he has been so successful is that he recognizes that creative connection between art and science, and he encourages his employees to do the same. He buys original artwork to hang in the hallways on campus, and he even brings in the occasional musical performance. In fact, last year we had a couple of traditional Chinese musicians from Qingdao to come by and play for us. As for the educational aspect, I agree with henning that it's difficult to comment. Speaking from my own experience (small, rural school), I couldn't say that school killed creativity...but it certainly didn't do a lot to foster it.