When is the second character of a word a neutral tone?

I think that at your level, you're probably best off not thinking too much about the neutral tone. You want to make sure you know the tone of each charachter by itself because it won't always be neutral. In order to get the tones down in the beginning (which is crucial because if you don't, it will be very hard to correct at a later stage) you should say each character with it's appropriate tone. With time in China, you will learn how they use the neutral tone.

RJBerki, if you lived in Southern California you would find that most of the Chinese people speak Mandarin. I don't have any statistics or anything, but I live in Orange County now but am from LA County originally and I hear a whole lot more Mandarin than Cantonese down here.

gregmacgraph, If its that complicated, I agree its not worth the effort at this level. As for recommendation regarding to learning the individual character tones solidly first, I whole heartily agree and have been following said advice for several years now. AuntieSue, You certainly hit the nail on the head regarding curiosity and my desire to seek classification and dig for the truth. I have fallen in love with Chinese characters (especially the written form which I have been practicing daily for several years now and am seeing progress!) but my listening skills are quite lacking although again, ChinesePod has already starting bearing fruit in this area in the few months since discovering it. Also I can really relate to you as far as the seemingly more complex system of the nine Cantonese tones being a lot more logical. Although, not familiar with this system, from my experience this happens all the in mathematical structures as well. 再见， 何瑞林

Interesting what you say about mathematics. Maybe there's some pattern here? Cantonese grammar is a little bit more complex than Mandarin grammar, but that extra complexity or detail makes it easier to learn somehow, like it makes sense so it sticks. And then, it seems like Cantonese has given me a grasp of the fully functioning pattern, so I can move down to the more truncated style of Mandarin grammar and make better sense of the Mandarin, as if my brain can now supply enough context to feel the underlying logic where there had been none apparent. Is there an optimal level of complexity for human learning, understanding, and remembering, I wonder? Oh yeah, in case anyone has a passing interest in Cantonese tones, it's really quite simple. From Mandarin we know about tones that glide up, glide down, and stay level. We also know that some tones lie higher or lower in the voice range. So in Cantonese there are the same three types of tone (glide down, glide up, stay level), each type existing in high and low versions. That's it, really, that's all there is to it! Depending on how you name them, you'll count anything from six to ten tones, but that's splitting hairs.

AuntySue: It seems like it would be very difficult to pick out where the tone falls in a particular voice range, since voice ranges vary widely. How do you tell the difference from person to person?

Not absolute voice pitch, but voice range. Everyone's voice range is whatever it is. The first tone falls in the high part of each person's voice range. Got it?

I think so. It probably sounds more difficult than it actually is.

Well sure, if someone just yells out "ma" and nothing else you might wonder what tone it is, not knowing what the rest of their voice sounds like. In Mandarin, for example, you might wonder whether they're saying "scold" or "horse". But even then, you could tell by the quality of their voice whether they're pushing the word out down around their boots or singing/squeaking it out near the top of their normal speaking voice. If that wasn't so clear, it would provide a wonderful source of jokes about misunderstandings... which is not such a bad thing to have in a language anyway. :-) Normally people talk in phrases, and it only takes a few syllables to give plenty of context.

Aunty Sue, that's an interesting point you've brought up about Cantonese grammar. I've been with Cpod a year now and I'm at the level where the tones are no big deal to replicate and I can now recognize many of the most basic, 'useful-to-know' (at Elementary level) characters, however, I find I am floundering at the grammatical level. I struggle to see any patterns in the sentences, so your suggestion that Cantonese grammar seems to make more sense is intriguing. I have been put off from attempting to learn Cantonese by what one hears about it have 6-10 tones. However you've just explained why Cantonese tones are not (too) difficult to grasp if you're already familiar with Mandarin. Might just have to visit that Cantonese site you run!

Sue- I do love the way Cantonese sounds. It is almost musical. "sic mmsic tang guang dong hua aaaaaaaaaaaaaah"! I love that ending as it rises to complete a question. I wish I had time to learn both languages. You are obviously working with both. In which are you more proficient? In 广东话 (guang dong hua) (cantonese) they still use traditional characters, is that correct? l have friends in HK and I am so envious because they all speak Cantonese, Mandarin, and English perfectly and switch from one to another almost seamlessly. My buddy once got confused while translating for the group back and forth between Cantonese, Mandarin, and english and he turned to me and spoke in Mandarin but the funny thing is I understood what he said and he didnt even realize he had done this until a couple iterations later. I am so jealous though and it reminds me of a joke I heard while working in South America: what do you call someone who speaks 2 languages - "bilingual". what do you call someone who speaks 3 languages - "trilingual". what do you call someone who speaks only one language - "American". Unfortunately so true.

That's good advice, don't sweat over anything you don't need to. A lot of people need to know which tasks they can drop and concentrate on the others. For some of us, though, it is a curiosity thing. We need answers to our questions right at the time they are asked, even if not "ready for them" yet. When you're not following a carefully planned stuctured course, you need to have access to all information at all times. I have found learning the six or nine tones of Cantonese a great deal easier than Mandarin's four tones, _because_ of this neutral tone mystery in Mandarin. In my case, telling me, long ago when a newbie, not to worry about it yet has actually made it harder, and the whole tone business more stressful, than it would have been if I'd had an answer when I was curious in week three. Consequently I will never feel confident with Mandarin tones until I get this neutral tone sorted out, and by this stage I've kinda lost interest in it anyway.

RJBerki, beware of that question ah at the end. Don't say it with a high pitch, otherwise you'll sound like the archetypal foreigner. It's a mid-range tone. Even if you think you hear it high, always say it mid level so you'll sound smart and nobody can take the mickey out of you. ;-) The ah and the higher la and all the other sentence endings sound great, don't they! It makes the language sound expressive, interpersonal, and very human in a raw kinda way. I don't know much Cantonese at all. I studied it for a month, then took a couple of months break from study, and now I'm getting back into it again. Most people on the forum know heaps more than me. I learned my Mandarin with traditional characters (that's all that's used in my country) so there was no problem. To my surprise, I've found Cantonese speakers in China who use only simplified characters for their Cantonese, so the two don't necessarily go together. Everyone should learn both types, anyway.

Sue- thanks for the tip. I will check out your forum. I dont want to start another war but I think learning simplified makes the most sense (for me) not that there is anything wrong with learning both. Everyone is taught simplified in China now and even the Cantonese speakers learn simplified because they learn Mainland Mandarin in school. Only the old-timers know only traditional and they will disappear by attrition as was the intent. Every flash card or resource I have ever used to learn simplified characters also shows trad characters and I make a note of what they look like even though I dont "learn" them. I am confused by your comment that only trad is used in Australia (your country) since you would think they would teach what is more prevalent in China. Im not sure about Taiwan - do they use strictly traditional? Do they teach simplified in school? I just see an overwhelming trend toward simplified. Since you already know traditional it should be easy to learn the simplified now. I do see the beauty in traditional characters and they are tied directly to the original meanings. Someone should preserve that I suppose just like someone still can read old Egyptian but its not going to be me. I have enough trouble just becoming functional. Maybe someday, someday far off. But not now.

Bob, I would have to disagree with you regarding learning only simplified characters. I personally have undertaken to learn both 简体字 and 繁体字 (now if only I knew how to enable traditional characters with Google IME I write them in all my posts). The beauty of the traditional characters is extraordinary, although in a few cases I would admit the simplified character more elegant than its traditional ancestor. Also many years down the line I would like to would like to tackle the original writings of 老子， 庄子 and 孔子。 It turns out that there is even a beta greasy-monkey plug-in developed by the Cpod team (so sorry I can't find the link at the moment) to make traditional characters available on the Firefox browser. I choose not to do this as I translate by hand all lesson dialog and expansion sections. This gives me the practice of writing and looking up words in MDGB. Obviously, each lesson takes a lot longer to get through, but I'm finding the increased retention rate is worth it. Hey Sue, thanks so much for the Cantonese tone overview ... I really enjoy your posts and writing style ... your ability to express yourself so clearly makes me quite envious ... in particular, I really struggle with my posts! 再见， 何睿林

I'm bored by discussions of the relative merits of one form of Chinese writing or another, but I will explain what I said. I wasn't talking about what is taught here (there's very few Chinese classes anyway), I was talking about what is actually used here in Oz. Chinese is our second most spoken language (second to English), and traditional characters are always used. For example, each major city has at least a daily and a weekly newspaper in Chinese, magazines, etc, all in traditional characters. The signs around Chinese shops are in traditional characters, and any multilngual community publications use traditional characters. Anyone who migrates here from the mainland now has to quickly get used to it, like it or not, because that's what we use and that's that. Of course if someone wants to learn a bit when planning a trip to China they'll learn simplified characters, in the same way that an American traveling to Barthelona might learn those funny Spanish sounds. But you don't need to travel the world to speak and read the language when it's all around you, and it's most practical to learn those forms that already thrive in your home community.

Thanks Sue. clear now. It just didn't register that Chinese was spoken to that degree in Australia. Makes sense - It just didnt occur to me. Thats one place I have never been. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Im always happy when I can learn something new. Heruilin- I understand the academic attraction to learning trad charactes but when I consider the added work load to benefit ratio It makes more sense to let it go for now. Correct me if Im wrong but even mainland Chinese students are no longer taught traditional characters in school. Where and when would I need or use them? Maybe if I were planning to spend a lot of time in Australia or Taiwan, but my heart is in Shanghai :-). But having said that, I am an open minded guy and may change my mind yet. I also agree with you that Sue is a clever wordsmith. She and I have had that discussion and I too envy her abilities. -Bob

Here in the Boston area, all three Chinese newspapers are in traditional characters. With very few exception all the Chinese restaurants here in New England use traditional characters on their menus. Similarly, when I rent an Asian film it invariably uses traditional characters for subtitles. Although my s.o. grew up in Beijing during the cultural revolution, while there she still learned on her own to read (but not write) traditional characters as she was very interested in Tang dynasty poetry. My switch to an emphasis on traditional characters came only after several years of only focusing on simplified ones ... its never too late, hey hey :^) 再见， 何睿林

In the US the majority of Chinese speak Cantonese. They brought traditional characters with them and have had no reason to change. Don't get me wrong. I would love to master both sets of characters, as I would also like to speak Cantonese, but in the interest of practicality I have chosen to wait. Yea it would be great to be able to understand Tang dynasty poetry and I would like to read 孔子 in his original text but that can wait, and translations are available in the meantime. I admire you for doing both and I understand why Sue has chosen to focus on traditional characters, but I think I will wait a while. You do have me thinking about it however, so who knows, I may wake up tomorrow and change my mind. You also have an advantage (I think) - a S.O. that speaks Chinese :-) -Bob

Bob, Yes, in the beginning of the relationship it really help jump start my learning as she introduced me to the beauty of the written language (I had just finished Pimsleur Mandarin III at the time when I met her). However, now that her English has gotten so proficient over the last 4 years that we hardly even speak Chinglish anymore. This is cool as we both realized early on that her mastering of English was much more important than me Chinese. However, she does humor me when I try out various new sayings and teachings. Also whenever she introduces a new saying or vocabulary I lovingly harass her until she writes it down! She said my improvement over the last 6 weeks since abandoning Rosetta Stone and switching to ChinesePod is quite noticeable. (This is not surprising as Ken and company have really latched onto something extremely powerful AND fun!) I'm very excited about meeting her family in Beijing this May and no one but her speaks English so I'm highly motivated as a result. 再见， 何睿林

Grammar can be presented as data to memorise and practise, or it can be presented as opportunities for learners to become empowered to generate the language themselves. I've only seen it taught the first way, which is awful, and that's probably why it's seldom taught these days. Early on I reached the point where I feel like I'm just adding vocabulary words, still not feeling confident about using the vocab I learned in the first month, so it's hard to find motivation to add too many more unownable words. I think the majority of people can pick it up by seeing the patterns and the general feeling of what is right, and don't need to "study grammar". That's great. Some of us, though, need full explanations from the beginning, to avoid frustration and to provide a framework that we require to prevent constant forgetting. Asking questions doesn't work. You can't know what to ask. Working it out for yourself is great if it works, and torture for those who never get it or need confirmation. Grammar books are no good because they are written in a third language, things like "juxtaposed passive umbilical participle" that there is no course to learn about, where the teacher's pristine accuracy is more important than the linguistically naive student's ownership of the concepts. It may just be that I have found Cantonese materials that satisfy this odd need to have everything explained in detail in my language from day one. But I do find the patterns rather more obvious and memorable, and even though there's a lot more to remember, it does seem sometimes like more work is less effort. I'm sure it depends on what kind of learner you are though.