erhua vs no erhua

darkstar94

嗯，我知道，我的意思是说在几秒钟内，下班儿和下班她都说了，这不奇怪吗

verazhang100

其实作为一个南方人，我觉得挺奇怪。但是，我不太知道北方人的感觉。

lujiaojie

汗！在上海，我经常这样。一会儿儿化，一会儿不儿化。

darkstar94

拿英文来说吧，如果我听有人用美式英语说"car"，然后下一句就用英式英语，我会觉得奇怪的。我们以上所讨论的现象可能由于南方人受到北方人的影响，北方人也受到同样的影响，所以一会儿儿化，一会儿不儿化这种事情也许越来越正常了。

lujiaojie

呵呵，我觉得你的理解是正确的！

darkstar94

I'm not sure if there are many Northerners within the ChinesePod staff, so I shall redirect this question to a Chinese forum or something like that and get back to you.

zhenlijiang

Hey thanks if you can do that but pls don't go to any trouble for my sake. Yeah I guess you're right. There really aren't any Northerners lurking around here ...

darkstar94

Don't worry! Remember it was my original curiosity that brought about this question, so it's for both of us :)

darkstar94

Okay, so this is what my friends said (who all happen to be Northerners):

正常，基本上用儿化音无意识〜

楼上+1

正常!可以变换着说 北京人喜欢带儿话音 不过下班儿说起来赶脚比较随意

zhenlijiang

Thanks! So they're saying it's totally 正常 to mix it up is that right? Because you don't really think about erhua-ing, it's not deliberate.

下班儿说起来赶脚比较随意--this bit I don't quite get. What is 赶脚? （感觉？）

darkstar94

Yeah I didn't get it either, I was trying to figure out what they meant to say, I think you're right, it must be 感觉. Yeah to mix is normal, I just find it odd because personally if someone pronounced something two different ways within such a short time (e.g. saying "ofTen and then ofFen") I would find it odd.

zhenlijiang

I know what you mean about finding that odd. I think that's how Japanese from, say, the Kansai area (Osaka, Kobe etc), feel when they hear me speak Japanese (my native language) sometimes. I'm from the eastern side so any western traits mixed occasionally into my speech are not in my foundation but random, and much of the time not deliberate. Some pieces are just catchy, hard to resist mouthing yourself once you've heard them. They give the feeling of being more at ease, relaxed. But I think Kansai folk hear it and think, why is she doing that?

In a similar way I think erhua might just be irresistible. Not that I want to go grrr- shrrr- arrr-ing ALL of the time ...

I like to erhua though. I like to mix it up all the time, maybe a bit too much. Not being a native speaker I almost feel entitled to mix--whatever works, for communication!

darkstar94

Well I mean I probably pronounce often two different ways unconsciously, and might pronounce other things more than way unconsciously, but my point is changing within such a small space of time, I mean you would think that if you pronounced it one way and then said it 3 seconds after that it would be the same pronunciation.

I completely understand the whole mixing thing you are talking about, but would you ever find yourself changing pronunciation of the same word twice within one sentence?

zhenlijiang

No I do see what you find strange. I think it might be a kind of indecision. You're not committed to either pronunciation, and that makes you prone to saying it both ways within seconds. You may even be going out of the way to say that word twice within seconds because you subconsciously don't want to end without having done it both ways.

darkstar94

Okay, well see how often you encounter people changing their pronunciation within a short space of time. I know there is language accommodation which is understandable to change your pronunciation while talking to a particular person, but I personally find it strange to be going in and out of different pronunciations, maybe I am just too notice these types of things too much.

zhenlijiang

No this isn't about language accommodation while talking to a particular person ...

I watched the video again. It is a short space of time. But the second time when she doesn't erhua, she's clarifying, being more specific in her reply because the guy who came asking about her coworker seemed to not understand immediately, when the first time she simply said 下班儿了. The guy repeats 下班儿了 like "oh ... she's gone?". So she adds to her reply, she says 是啊。六点就下班了。现在都几点了. Seems like she dropped the erhua when she felt (a slightly) greater need to clarify.

In any case, it doesn't seem strange to me.

darkstar94

That seems like a reasonable explanation, it kind of reminds me of Labov's experiment in New York with rhotic pronunciation, but it's not likely that it's the same case.