Dear Chinesepod Overlords

There was one final thing I forgot to mention that I feel is also very important and this a need for more voices. Both in the dialogues and as hosts/guests on the shows. A Chinese male host somewhere would be excellent--even on just a part-time basis. With the dirt-cheap labor costs in China it should be relatively easy to find people willing to lend their voices.

Dave, I officially say 對不起 and eat many of my words from above. It appears from John's post Upgrading Old Lessons proves that CPod is financially able to go back and revise a bunch of lessons. My mistake, Brent P.S. I wonder if Chinese words taste better than English words. I think they probably have more flavor.

Also, if people get a very small amount of actual examples of Chinese grammar(e.g. elementary), explained or not, they still won't soak it up through osmosis.

Dave, I absolutely agree. There needs to be a "glue" here to provide cohesiveness between levels and to focus our study. Each lesson could be a little capsule in an of itself that can reinforce all aspects of language, pronunciation, vocabulary, word order, grammer, and maybe even reading and writing. I know this can be particularly challenging given the context of free non-linear learning, however with everything there needs to be a certain amount of structure. How much structure? Only time and experience can tell us. I also believe there should be more and more Chinese used as one moves up the rungs of the ladder. I think the major issue is that with language we are making connections. Connections within our mind that connect words to meanings. How we associate experiences, feelings, sights and sounds to words is a tough nut to crack. Before I used Chinesepod I was using a system that has all the information one would ever need to reach a truly advanced level, yet was stagnating because it's only presenting the information. The trick is, how do we make the connection? How do we go from input to output? What method do we use to collect the information, process it, remember it and then have the ability to put it to use? Exercises are very helpful, order of information is very helpful, bringing back previous information at the appropriate time is helpful, immersion is helpful, but what is the key to put it all together? I think the answer to this question is what Dave and the rest of us are searching for.

Agreed again. If I am to learn the grammar through examples, then I'm going to need several examples. After ~7 months of study, I can parrot phrases like nobody's business, but I still struggle to form a (correct) sentence from scratch.

You guys made some great points. For me, the most difficult challenge in my learning is listening comprehension. Specifically, understanding what people are saying when they speak at their natural rate of speed, individual manner, or regional accent. I notice that I get better at understanding as my vocabulary expands but I think there is a lot to be said for blunt exposure to the many varying voices and ways of expressing thoughts into words. For example, some people might prefer to speak using passive verbs rather than active verbs or use one type of sentence pattern over another (to express basically the same thing).

Dave: Even after all these years, I still have a problem with listening comprehension. Although it's much better now, about two years I was completely hopeless! I was utterly perplexed as to why I could say so much, speak quite fluently, but misunderstand or completely not understand about 80% of what was said to me. Like you said, blunt exposure can compensate for a lot! After I started using Chinesepod, my listening comprehension skills absolutely skyrocketed. I was actually understanding complex sentences, not like before where after the first sentence or two I was completely lost. Certainly listening and responding are two of the funamental keys to grasping any language. Some tips to help you understand more would be: Look for patterns: Patterns that we use over and over again are a fundamental to understanding. EG: 在。。。一起， 是。。。的， 因为。。。所以 etc. Those often used patterns provide a foundation for the sentence, and move language from a random string of noises into the communication of ideas. There is no spoon...I mean...rolled tongue: So many Chinese people don't use the rolled tongue sounds, so get used to no Zhi, Chi, Shi....only zi, ci, si. If you approach it from the perspective that the rolled tongue doesn't exist, it helps much better to understand when the Chinese People don't use it. Lean the basic meanings of characters: If you know the basic meaning of a character then you'll know it when it's used alone and will help you understand better when it's used in paired with other characters. Such as: 感， 感觉， 感冒. Learn Synonyms: Knowing 但，但是，可是，不过 can help you understand better, even if for the rest of your life you only choose to say 但是, you won't misunderstand when other people use them. Listen with texts in front of you: If you listen to your Chinesepod Podcasts with your transcripts in front of you, I've found it helps to speed up the learning process, this way you can understand better when new words are introduced, you've got it right in front of you when you need the answer and the pieces of the puzzle fall into place that much faster. Read Aloud: Get out your Pinyin text and start finding any and avery excuse to read out loud. Reading aloud is a great way to help exercise pronunciation and help you feel more comfortable speaking, but I've noticed it also provides a huge boost to listening comprehension. Learn Characters: I know I've talked this subject to death, but I've seen a direct correlation between learning to read Chinese Characters, and how quickly I can pick up new words, phrases, grammer points etc. I hear, therefore I am: LISTEN! Sounds simple right? I know you probably don't have much time to focus on your Chinese study, but the great thing is, with Chinesepod you don't have to! Just listen with the podcasts off in the background while your'e doing your chores, playing on the computer, doing your homework, sleeping, etc. Just by virtue of the fact that it's present, some of it will sink in!

xiaohu, Thank you for taking the time for your last post. I found it to be quite helpful and encouraging

leimengde: 不客气！ I'm very glad you found it helpful!

99.999% percent of the time I only lurk in these conversations but I must say that any suggestion that Xiahu has posted has recently helped me tremendously in my studies. From the from the "continue the story" idea (whiteout and comic books for me) to the suggestion he has posted here. Thank you xiaohu!

"...more grammar explanations and more natural Chinese conversations starting at the lower levels." I agree. There have been some other conversations about transitions between levels, etc. (which I didn't participate in), but I must say, the transitions could be a bit smoother. Moving from Elementary to Intermediate (for me, at least) was particularly painful. I know Ken especially values the non-linear, "inductive," listen-to-whatever-lesson-you-want-to approach. And I agree, it can be (and is) a much more relaxed, practical approach to learning a language. However, this can be taken to the extreme. There are times when I feel that learning a particular grammar rule will really help me to put the puzzle together, and I'd rather you just tell me instead of assuming that I'll get it sometime down the road. I know, I know. We don't parse grammar rules in our heads when we're having a conversation. Granted. But if no one learned me them rules when I was young, then I couldn't of learned to talk English good.

Hi xiaohu, 我也同意。 As a adjunct to your superb advice, I find hand writing out all of the lesson character dialogs and expansion sentences (I actually go one step further and using the on-line MDGB dictionary, write out every thing in traditional characters) extremely helpful. Granted, its very time consuming and a single elementary lesson takes me several hours but the results have been worth it, especially carefully analyzing the expansion sentences. I should also point out that I do not use vocabulary lists, flash cards as I find I need as much context as possible to accelerate my learning process. Hi Dave, As for your topic post, first of all, 你這么棒！Congratulations! ... you have made extraordinary progress in such a short time. Maybe a little tweaking here and there may improve this product (and it does appear to be frequently tweaked) but I think nothing more (the long awaited grammar tool not withstanding). 再見， 何睿林

Xiaohu, I like your approach to studying. It's very similar to my own. Heruiin, thank you but my post wasn't just for showing off my slightly exaggerated level of progress. As for the staff--you guys could at least flip me the bird and let me know you read the post!

Dave: I noticed often the staff likes to keep us guessing. We post something for their attention or e-mail it directly to them and it is seemingly ignored. Then we can post something not directed toward them and they get involved in the conversation. Other times they will post responsed to some questions that are posted to them on the boards but not to others with no rhyme or reason to it at all. At this point I'd wouldn't take offense, just figure, hey they probably looked at it and took it into account, "duly noted" as they say.

A couple suggestions: 1. Include a "grammar note" on the .pdfs, or wherever you choose, that is accessible. Whether it's on basic sentence structure or something more complex, there are those of us that really /do/ like the grammar and would love to have it. 2. Having texts to read, or audio blogs (or even if it's the same) would help challenge and I think solidify some of the knowledge. I'm still at a newbie/elementary level, but I listen to several fully Mandarin news programs. I don't understand it all, but hearing the flow and tone is incredibly helpful. 3. I write out the lessons, as Heruilin does. Character writing methods/info would help make ChinesePod a more comprehensive site, rather than the students needing to bounce around and use different programs. From a business standpoint, if you're able to provide that function, you'd eliminate some competition for the programs that are just writing-based.

Dave... agreed. I'd really like to see much much less English used at all levels, with full transcripts. English explanations of grammar or other patterns could be explained in text on the lesson page... or maybe in-depth explanations and more examples under one of the basic/premium subscriber links.

Warning: The following post is way toooooo long! I wouldn't even read it myself, but it's my 2 cents. I have to disagree with the main point of what's said above. I'm not disagreeing with people's individual ways of learning, or their suggestions for ways to improve ChinesePod - I think the majority of them are really great points (and would be great suggestions for a start-up language company). But I don't think it's possible to integrate these changes into a well-established lesson model that already works quite well. At least not without major business and financial consequences arising. The key is that CP is already well-established. After 3 years of existence, and almost 800 lessons, it would be difficult for CP to implement such comprehensive changes to their existing lesson model. Not impossible, but difficult. And I'm not sure they'd want to. Minor improvements here and there, tweaks, new tools, etc. are great, but many of the things mentioned above would drastically change future lessons. Then what do you do with the existing lessons? The "cohesiveness" would then be out the window, unless you bag the existing lesson archive and start from scratch with these new changes. It isn't enough to think "It'd be really great if CP would do this or do that." It can't be looked at from a learner's viewpoint only - it also must be viewed from a business and financial perspective. Examples: - How do you integrate the above changes into the already large archive of existing lessons? If you could create a plan with the new changes, what about the time and cost that would be required to implement it? - How do you integrate listening immersion on CP? I don't think it's the place for immersion. There are other sources for that (CCTV, tudou.com, Chinese film, etc.). Of course, real immersion and listening comprehension only come from living in a Chinese-speaking-only environment. - Grammar support is a big want/need by many users, myself included. I believe that CP is moving in the right direction in regards to grammar, with the Grammar Guide that will eventually be active. I think the way CP is implementing the guide is perfect - it will allow certain words/phrases in lessons to be linked to the guide. This is great because not only can new lessons use links to the Grammar Guide, but old lessons can be easily retrofitted to include links to the guide. The key is that the lesson dialogue doesn't have to change at all. Ultimately, I think making changes to the lessons would harm CP more than it would help. I agree that there could be easier transitions between levels, but I think that can be done with the current lesson model. At the same time I also believe that, while learning any language, there are going to be painful transitions (especially for adults). I think that's inevitable. I'm not saying that I wouldn't want easier transitions...I just don't think people should be under the false pretense that learning Chinese is not hard. For $240 a year for a premium subscription, I think that CP provides value far above and beyond 20 bucks a month. I don't think CP is a one-stop shop and I don't think you can become fluent by using CP alone. Users shouldn't expect CP to be the end-all-be-all. To become fluent, you should expect to find other learning avenues, and you should expect to spend more than $20 a month. CP can't be everything to everyone...when you have an audience in the thousands, especially one that's web-based, there will always be limitations. My guess is that CP tries to keep it simple to attract a broad base of users - personally I like it that way, less is more. Learning Chinese is difficult enough as it is...don't make it more complicated by adding features that can be found elsewhere for free. I don't think CP attempts to sell itself as a one-stop shop, but I do believe it does sell itself as an amazing tool that can lead you on a path to Chinese fluency (which it is). I feel confident that ChinesePod and it's staff, based on their knowledge and experience, know what they're doing. They are definitely doing something right, and I think their model is one that other ventures will try to duplicate (and probably some day improve upon). I agree with Dave that "big businesses fail because they become stagnant, etc.", but I think CP is far from stagnant - from what I've seen, it's constantly being improved (often based on user feedback), while at the same time maintaining its current model. How many other businesses can you say that about? My point is that we should take ChinesePod for what it is, a great learning tool. Definitely provide feedback because it's absolutely essential. But if your suggestion isn't implemented, look elsewhere to find that tool that will help you get one step closer to fluency. That was ridiculously long...my apologies if I put anyone to sleep!

Calkins--I appreciate your long post. I have penciled in Sunday afternoon to read this discussion. No sarcasm intended. There are a lot of good ideas I think some help me in my learning on this sight. But to the point of some 'glue'.... Two thoughts came to mind when I read Dave's post. 1. Exams. There are some short exercises, but having a collection from a body of exercises that one could use to evaluate his/her self would be good. I think to the point that is is feasible it should include reading characters, listening and matching, and writing. An automated online speech analysis would be a crowning achievement. Cost of development might be prohibative. 2. Learning tracks/trails. With almost 800 lessons in the servers, some curriculum might be doable. But this would also require more targeted lesson. Group lessons based on subject matter and vocabulary. Users could pick a trail based on their goals/needs. (e.g. Social, tourism, business) For me the hardest part is building vocabulary and recall. I find recognizing the words when others say them comes a little more quickly, than "owning the legos" and being able to stack them the way I would like.

I'm really glad to see so many great ideas in response to my post. I still think my "solution" has a fundamentally strong point but it has become clear to me now that there are a lot of issues I hadn't fully considered.

mandafars: I'm so tremendously please to have been a help to you. I can't tell you how much what you said means to me! 我非常非常高兴! 让我们都连说个加油!