Traditional What....
trevorb
September 14, 2008, 08:40 PM posted in General DiscussionI have a book that my wife found for me in a charity shop that is divided, half in Hanzi and half in English. I sometimes read it to see how much I've improved in my reading (not a lot but I get a sense of it).
Today I noticed the character combination 為什麼 in the book. I'm learning both Traditional and Simplified at the same time so I did a sort of double take reading this. My books indicate this should be 為甚麼 wei4shen2me.
Is this an accepted shortening for shen2 or is in some traditional texts and if so why. (I'd rather shorten the "me"). Or am I reading this completely wrong and it does not say why but something else instead!
Trevor
ksarvestani
April 05, 2009, 12:24 PM[self-censored]
tvan
September 16, 2008, 12:31 AMtrevorb, first, as you said, 什 is the simplified version of the traditional 甚. However, a quick perusal of my dictionary and character genealogy (both traditional) indicates that they are also separate characters (i.e. traditional) with separate and ancient meanings.
甚/Shèn: According to my dictionary, this means 1) to a great extent/exceedingly; 2) very much or many; and 3) very anxious/urgent. Examples given include 甚美(very beautiful) and 甚好 (very good). This above usages are primary in writing.
甚/Shén: This version means, "What."
什/Shén: Also mean, "What."
什/Shí: This character/pronunciation combo means 1) Sundry (e.g. 什器 or assorted ingredients); 2) ten (e.g. 什一 or one-tenth) and 3) a squad of 10 soldiers.
So, to answer your question on the character 什 my dictionary notes that the meaning of, "a squad of ten soldiers" is an archaic definition that dates back to the ancient times (generally Han or Tang). Therefore, the character 什itself existed long before simplified Chinese. Also, based on my limited understanding, the character 甚 is a replacement for 很 in literary Chinese or 文言。Thus, it is also a fairly old character. (In present-day conversation, I would stick to the 什麼 usage.)
Finally, as a side note, my Taiwan-published dictionary listed the pronunciation of both 甚 and 什 as shé, not shén; probably a local variation.
I'm way outta of my depth here, so if anybody else has any corrections/insights to add, please do.
changye
September 16, 2008, 01:22 AMThe word "甚至" (shen4 zhi4, even) is relatively frequently used in modern Chinese. And 布什 (bu4 shi2, Mr.Bush) is the most often seen example of the usage of "什" (shi2). As tvan said, 甚 and 什 are characters that have a long history, just like many other Chinese characters. Both of them are listed in 说文解字 (100 AD).
lostinasia
September 16, 2008, 04:46 AMMost of the textbooks I've used in Taiwan use 什 rather than 甚, even though the rest of the textbook is traditional characters. I actually never encountered 甚 until I started studying with ChinesePod's traditional character converters.
Also in Taiwan the traditional 臺 will often be replaced with simplified 台.
tvan
September 16, 2008, 06:13 AMlostinasia, I think even the "simplified" 台 has a fairly long history, though I'll defer to Changye for details. It is definitely a separate character from 臺.
changye
September 16, 2008, 06:26 AMHi lostinasia,
Tks for intriguing information. I've also found a lot of 什麽, neither 什么 nor 甚麽, on web pages written in traditional Chinese. One of my Japanese dictionaries says that 什 was already used as an "unofficial" simplifeid character of 甚 in China perhaps in the 19th century. And therefore, 什 is not necessarily a " PRC-made 简体字" for Taiwanese people. In other words, 什 is a very traditional "simplified character".
user76423
September 16, 2008, 06:39 AMDetails about simp. 台 (trad. 臺, 颱, 檯, 台)
台 [trad: 臺] tái = platform; stage; terrace // stand; support // station // short for Taiwan // MW for performances/engines/etc.
台 [trad: 颱] tái = in 颱風[台风] táifēng = typhoon
台 [trad: 檯] tái = table; desk
台 [trad: 台] tái = you (in letters) // Surname
_________________
台 and 臺 were two separate characters, and 臺 is still sometimes used among full form characters. 台 is used as the simple form of 臺.
台 is 厶 breath over 口 mouth.
Wieger says: "The 口 mouth exhaling a 厶 breath. By extension, to speak in order to make one's self known; I, one's self. The character is now mostly used as a conventional abbreviation for 臺.
臺 is 吉 over 冖 over 至. It is a picture of a tower, like 高 and 京. Hence, an elevated place, platform, terrace.
source: Wenlin
changye
September 16, 2008, 06:52 AMHi tvan
Your hunch is very right. 台 and 薹 were different two characters. 台 was originally pronounced as "yi2" and meant "pleasant" in ancient times, and you can see one of its family characters, 怡 (yi2, pleasant), in modern Chinese. You probably know the name of a famous Chinese actress "章子怡". And then 台 later began to be used as a simplified character of 薹 sometime in the past.
tvan
September 16, 2008, 12:01 PMchangye, if trevorb will excuse my hijacking, maybe you can answer a question for me on the origins of the simplified 会. Obviously, it is used a simplified Chinese character. However, I also believe that is the Kanji version of 會. Is that correct? If so, do you know if it is another pre-revolution simplified Chinese character?Or, more intriguing, did the Chinese borrow from the Japanese?
trevorb
September 15, 2008, 09:16 PMI had assumed that 什 might be used in handwriting as the simplified forms are apparently based around the cursive forms of the traditional. It was its use in a printed text book that suprised me and that it was surrounded with with the more complex characters of Wei4 and me. They seem so much more complicated it seemed illogical not to shorten them!
If you are interested and can read a bit more than I can I could post the passage. Mind you it would take a while as I've yet to figure out how to input traditional chars with the keyboard, I've been using handwriting recogntion....
tvan
September 16, 2008, 02:18 PMchangye, as always your comments are insightful and appreciated. Plus you've also given me some fun material to tweak some of my more nationalist Chinese friends.
As is obvious from the limited discussion here, even a recent development such as simplified characters has a long, complicated history.
changye
September 17, 2008, 04:07 AMHi tvan,
Please let me give you more material for “teasing” your Chinese friends. According to Wikipedia (China), about 70 percent of social and cultural science terms in Chinese are Made-in-Japan loanwords, which are very frequently used in modern Chinese society.
From the end of the 19th century through until early 20th century, a lot of Chinese students or revolutionists, such as 孙中山, came to Japan and brought back many new-born Japanese technical terms, which were translated from Western words, to their home country.
Of course, those new words are all made using 汉字, and some of them are originated in phrases in classical Chinese literature. For example, “经济” is an abbreviation of 经世济民 in 中国古典, and Japanese scholars gave it a new meaning “economy” about one hundred years ago.
The same goes for an important word “革命”. Anyway, this historical fact clearly proves that Japanese intelligentsia at that time was very familiar with Chinese literature. Most Japanese people don’t know about this modest “repayment” to their cultural benefactor “China”.
Below are some examples:
共产党、干部、指导、解放，社会主义、资本主义，革命，政治，政府，政党，市场、服务，经济，人权、申请，解释，理论，原则，科学，商业，健康，法律，金库、特权、哲学、环境、艺术、医学、
劳动，阶级，斗争，组织，纪律，派出所，警察，检察官，方针，政策，共和，文学，抽象，取缔，取消，引渡，手续，积极，消极，目的，义务，当事者，第三者，场合，继承，债权，债务，法人，
条件，契约，卫生，同化，代表，压力，野蛮，表象、美学、背景、化石、战线、入场券、下水道、公证人、分类表、低能儿 互惠、独占、交流、高压、特许、否定、肯定、表决、欢送、仲裁、妄想、
主义、公开、希望、活动、命令、见习、假死、假设，供给、说明、方法、共同、知识、综合、说教、教授、解剖、断交、脱党、动员、失踪、投票、休战、作战、投资、投机、抗议、规范、动议、处刑
gunthervanpeebles
September 17, 2008, 06:59 AMFor alternate forms of characters, you may like this site from Taiwan's education ministry:
http://140.111.1.40/
Find your way to the 部首 lookup page and lookup by stroke number (not incl. radical). You can find she2 甚 under 甘, for example, and see the 16 variants of 甚, one of which is 什, plus various caligraphy for them.
tvan
September 17, 2008, 01:40 PMchangye, not only 革命 but 共产党 as well? That's got to leave a mark! Still, given that the Meiji restoration occurred while the Qing were still trying to pretend the rest of the world didn't exist/matter, it makes sense that many East Asian interpretations of European concepts would come from Japan.
gunthervanpeebles, your link is an excellent reference. Some guy spent 7 years compiling 100,000 character variants!
sarahjs
September 18, 2008, 02:51 PMYeah the 甚 and 什 confused me. Chinese pod uses the former for it's Trad pfd's but the Taiwanese subtitles on TV use the later, I asked my friend and she clames that they are different characters/meanings.
Maybe this is just one of thoese, things when a language change. Rather than something more rational.
Also台 is the one I always see in Taipei.
changye
September 19, 2008, 01:21 PMHi tvan,
More interestingly, the black-faced words in 中华人民共和国 were also invented in Japan. As you said, Japan modernized earlier than other East Asian countries in the late 19th century. And it was much easier for Chinese intelligentsia to learn Western knowledge through Japanese than through English, French, or Germany, obviously owing to Chinese characters commonly used in Japanese.
The situation was more extreme in Korea than in China. While Korea was under Japanese rule from 1910 to 1945, Korean vocabulary was highly assimilated by Japanese, and this trend continued even after the liberation of Korea. The ROK continued to absorb Japanese/Western culture and technology mainly through Japanese, since most Korean people could speak the language well in those days.
And that is the very reason why there are tons of Chinese words commonly used both in modern Korean and Japanese. I’m only an elementary learner of Korean, but I can read Korean news articles about economy or politics without too much difficulty, partly because I know how to pronounce Chinese characters in Korean, but mainly because of unbelievable similarity in Korean and Japanese vocabulary.
In ancient times, Japan learned a lot of things from China and Korea, and then-newest knowledge came to Japan mainly through the Korean Peninsula. On the other hand, in the early modern East Asia, most Western culture flowed into China and Korea through Japanese archipelago, although I’m willing to admit that there is still a large amount of “cultural debt” listed on the balance sheet of Japan.
P/S. Linguistic situation in East Asia is a little more complicated than Western people might imagine.
tvan
September 19, 2008, 07:52 PMChangye, China's linguistic situation is complex enough; East Asia...
Hape and sarahjs, I imagine that the usage of 台 versus 臺 has to do with the formality of the situation? Both regularly appear in Taiwan.
changye
September 16, 2008, 01:23 PMHi tvan,
Thank you for nice homework. I couldn’t find the simplified character “会” both in 说文解字 and in 康熙字典, which means that the character is neither an authentic 汉字 (正字) nor a 异体字. Then I looked into my 草书 (cursive style characters) dictionary, and found some cursive “會” that are very similar to the shape of “会”.
汉字 simplification movements began in China and Japan in the early 20th century, and therefore, I think that “会” was created based on 草书 of “會” separately in the two countries, probably in the first half of the 20th century. For the record, some Japan-made 汉字, such as 鳕 and 腺, were actually exported to China in the past.
tvan
September 15, 2008, 12:55 PMtrevorb, I have no references to quote, but the traditional Chinese uses both forms of the 什/甚/shen character. In newspapers, I usually see the latter but, in other printed material and in handwriting, the former frequently appears.
You've just given me a project.