Traditional Character for lǐ ： 裡 or 裏 ?
calkins
March 16, 2009, 11:41 AM posted in General DiscussionI've recently come across a variant [ 裏 ] of the traditional character 裡 (lǐ, inside). I'm used to seeing 裡，so this variant threw me off.
I've learned that they both have the same radical and have the same total strokes:
裡 衣衤 + 7 13 strokes
裏 衣衤 + 7 13 strokes
Does anyone have any insight into why one would be used instead of the other?
Much thanks!
changye
March 21, 2009, 01:30 PMHi sagela
Most Chinese characters have a phonetic part (声符), which (roughly) represents a sound of a character, just like 里 in 裏 and 裡. And this it the reason these three characters have the same sound despite the difference in shape, although characters that have the same 声符 don't always have the same reading, of course.
I hear that a traditional form 裏 is mainly used in the PRC, and 裡 in Taiwan and Hong Kong. Confusingly, both 裏 and 裡 are used in Japan. I don't know why 裡 was newly made a few hundred years ago, but I suppose it's possible that 裡 was a dialect character made in southern regions in China. Just a wild guess.
changye
March 16, 2009, 12:51 PMHi calkins
Here is a copy of my comment on 裏 and 裡.
The character 裏 was invented more than two thousand years ago, on the other hand, 裡 is a relativelyl new character. Probably it was made only a few hundred years ago.
裏 is considered to be a traditional form of 里 in the PRC and used in, for example, 繁体字版 of online newspapers and magazines, but it seems that Taiwan medias primarily use 裡.
calkins
March 17, 2009, 12:04 PMjunying, 很有意思。那麽，这些字有同的和不同的意思吗？
calkins
March 17, 2009, 03:29 PMSorry, I've been told by a Chinese person that my above sentence is 很奇怪！ Ha ha.
changye
March 18, 2009, 07:01 AMHi calkins
As far as I know, both 裏 and 裡 have the same meaning in modern Mandarin. The original meaning of 裏 is "lining of clothes" according to 说文解字 (100A.D., 裏 衣内也), and the character was later bestowed an extended meaning "inside".
Some say that linings often had lattice pattern in ancient times, and this is the reason the characters 裏/裡 have the part "里" in them. The upper part of 里 indicates "a rice pad". It's plausible, but I think it sounds too plausible to be true, haha.
shane0918
March 18, 2009, 09:08 AM中国大部分都用简体字 台湾用繁体字
Long time ago,All the chinese use the "difficult words"like "裏"or"裡",Nowadays,Chinese almost use the"simple word",it is"里"it is less strokes,easy to write and standard.But the most Thailand people still use the"difficult word"now.But the meaning is same."inside"Just different in writing.
My English is very weak,but Chinese just fine.
P.S the"simple words"and"difficult words"isn't standard translation,just I made it help you easy to understand.HAHA
mko098uhb
March 18, 2009, 10:15 AMshane0918 wrote: "... most Thailand people...".
You mean Taiwan people, or?
Why do you think that "裏" or "裡" are difficult or complicated?
The only reason is that the education in the PRC makes you thinking this.
shane0918
March 18, 2009, 01:41 PMI have said,my English is very weak.Maybe the way I write make you misunderstand.But I have checked my sentens above,I think nowadays the resident of China mainland use the "Simplified Chinese"and most Taiwan people use the"Traditional Chinese"is the turth.I just told the turth.if that "simple word" and "difficult word" make you disunderstand,I am sorry for my unprofessional word-making,so I check my dictionary and use the right word this time. And,I just mean, "Simplified Chinese" has less strokes,easy to write,I think it is obviously.Isn't mean I think the "Traditional Chinese" is not good.Maybe you don't think so?It's up to you.
But.PLEASE DON'T DENIED the education of others CASUALLY! 请不要随随便便的否认别人所受的教育!! the education I have had,told me the the resident of China mainland and the Taiwan people are both CHINESE!Please,we are here for help the foreign people who wants to learn the really Chinese,don't argue the relationship between the China and Taiwan.I think it is ridiculous to argue with the compatriots in Taiwan on the website like this.It is like a joke.
changye
March 19, 2009, 12:27 AMHi shane0918
You have to agree to disagree, both politically and culturally, when you teach your mother tongue to foreign learners. It takes patience and tolerance to be a good teacher. Good luck.
hitokiri6993
March 19, 2009, 01:29 AM我通知大陸人偏愛用“裏”。福建人在這裡也用“裏”。
但香港人和台灣人都偏愛“裡”。
Dunno about 澳門人 though.
shane0918
March 20, 2009, 07:19 PM呃```
好象被误解了呢```
看来我的英语表达能力实在是差的有点厉害```
其实呢,我也没能力当Teacher啦,其实都算不上是teach
就是进来说了我知道的,希望能够帮助他们``
啊```至于 礼貌 和 宽容
其实,我真的没有对谁不礼貌呢T-T
只是我以为 那位zhenlijiang朋友是台湾同胞```
然后只是他的那句"The only reason is that the education in the PRC makes you thinking this."让我不太同意,其实我个人也觉得内地的教育体制有很多问题,可是我认为不能偏激的就说所有错误都是它引起的,其实我上面的意思是简体字比较好写,因为笔画少,我的确是没别的意思呢```即使我的确错了,仅仅只能代表我个人的想法呢,从小学到现在大学学校的确是没有教过我们说繁体字不好呢```所以```我只是想告诉zhenlijiang朋友我的想法```
被认为不礼貌了 ```啊``` 很抱歉```
不过要谢谢帮我指出我的错误哦```真是脸红```那天是第一天来这网站,所以不知道原来大家都知道简体繁体的说法,怪自己不仔细,啊``那个TAILAND也不知道当时我抽什么风呢``想哪去了```呃```实在是不好意思,谢谢zhenlijiang的改正!这也是我也想通过帮助外国朋友学中文然后同时自己也能提高英语的原因```
所以大家也谅解一下我这个英语不好的人在这里写了这么多中文吧,最近学习比较忙,希望以后还能经常来这里和中外朋友们互相帮助!! 可不要再被讨厌了呢```5 `
Good night~~
zhenlijiang
March 20, 2009, 08:39 PMshane0918,
"The only reason is that the education in the PRC makes you thinking this."
was not me. (^^)
i'm sorry if i embarrassed you, and understand you were writing in a language that's not easy for you like Chinese is not easy for me (so i guess you can tell, i am not Taiwanese).
there's no need to apologize like that. especially no need to apologize for writing in Chinese here, as this is a place to learn 中文. i should apologize for not trying to reply in Chinese.
for the future, just let me say (please don't be embarrassed), when you use a lot of exclamation marks !!! together with ALL CAPITAL letters you may be misunderstood because it can look like you're shouting at someone.
and i'm glad to hear that my original post to you hasn't discouraged you from coming back here and helping us all with our Chinese. cheers 88
shane0918
March 21, 2009, 06:45 AMHey,zhenlijiang,thank you very much for you tell me about the exclamation marks,and very helpful to me,and please don't think I am a bad-tempered girl.I am glad to listen you pointed out that the error I made.我觉得我好像这么几句话我又有一大堆语法错误呢```
And,
"The only reason is that the education in the PRC makes you thinking this." is not you.-_-\\\ I am very very sorry for that,It's said by mko098uhb.It seems that I am a really careless girl..T-T...I will never do things like that again...
And,zhenlijiang,I think your chinese is very excellent!You are not a Chinese,but you can understand the Chinese I write well.and most people here,their Chinese very good!I am adore all of you.Because I think people who speak other language to learn Chinese is very difficulty,Sometimes Chinese also hard for some Chinese people.So I should learn from you,I will learn English harder and harder like you learn Chinese!Thank you again,about exclamation marks,I am study the formal writing now,our foreign teacter say It's very important part of this term exam.I think It's very difficult.1 year later I will go to England finish my University Study.So,I must good at English like you good at Chinese!
So,we learn harder together~help each other~^_^
Thank you...HAHA
sagela
March 21, 2009, 12:30 PM裏and裡are all traditional words in Chinese.The simplified word of them is 里。Now,mainland of China use里,and people from other place whose motherlanguage is Chinese use 裏or裡.Why?As we all known,mainland of China has language revolution before,simplified words are created to instead their complified writing.But not all words are changed.
About the meaning,I want to say,Chinese are different from other language.The words writing and their pronunciation have no relationship.So even the writing style changed, the pronunciation and the meaning won't.
裏and裡 have the same meaning and pronunciation,then why Chinese people creat two word to present it?The reason is that in acient China,Chinese has many ways to write.For example ,people from different area of China or people from different level of Chinese cociety,they may have different handwriting style.Of course most of the words are not totally different,they more or less have the same features.
The first time of ancient China to consolidate the writing of Chinese is more than 2000 years ago.The first king of China --Qin shi huang did it.You guys are familiar with this King,beacuse he let his people creat the Great Wall.
sagela
March 21, 2009, 12:30 PM裏and裡are all traditional words in Chinese.The simplified word of them is 里。Now,mainland of China use里,and people from other place whose motherlanguage is Chinese use 裏or裡.Why?As we all known,mainland of China has language revolution before,simplified words are created to instead their complified writing.But not all words are changed.
About the meaning,I want to say,Chinese are different from other language.The words writing and their pronunciation have no relationship.So even the writing style changed, the pronunciation and the meaning won't.
裏and裡 have the same meaning and pronunciation,then why Chinese people creat two word to present it?The reason is that in acient China,Chinese has many ways to write.For example ,people from different area of China or people from different level of Chinese cociety,they may have different handwriting style.Of course most of the words are not totally different,they more or less have the same features.
The first time of ancient China to consolidate the writing of Chinese is more than 2000 years ago.The first king of China --Qin shi huang did it.You guys are familiar with this King,beacuse he let his people creat the Great Wall.
zhenlijiang
March 18, 2009, 02:49 PMshane0918, just look around this site. everybody here knows 简体字 and 繁体字. in English we say "simplified" and "traditional". please don't be upset, nobody is arguing with you about anything. it was just confusing because you wrote Thailand 泰国 when you meant Taiwan 台湾.
tvan
March 16, 2009, 12:30 PMCalkins, this question's come up a couple of time in the past week. Changye (of course) answered it but, since I'm too lazy to find that thread, I'll recap the gist of it.
The meaning's are identical. The second character, 裏 , is the older of the two, but the first one, 裡 , seems to be more commonly used in print