Introspection on Chinese study
mark
April 21, 2009 at 05:00 AM posted in General DiscussionI have recently crossed a few milestones in my Chinese study. The most mechanical of which is that I re-enlisted in chinesepod for a fourth year. I also did something that is getting increasingly difficult with each passing week; I have studied all of the lessons in Cpod's archive (with some caveats). The third big milestone is that I recently took the HSK.
Cpod is still fun and has become my primary resource for learning Chinese. I was past newbie stage before CPod existed, but I think I would be further along if Cpod had existed when I started. I have yet to spend a single day in traditional class. Ken posted a question on how to encourage newbies. I would have been the kind of newbie he wants, had Cpod been around at the start, but I'm afraid the motivation to continue studying comes from within. I simply pick the most appropriate study materials I can find. I think there is not much Cpod could have done to light the original fire, but availability of interesting and fun materials keeps the fire from being extinguished.
As to studying all of the lessons, retention is a different matter. If I had every word from every lesson on the tip of my tounge, I would be fluent, which I am still not. Although, I think there are still many things that a native speaker would know the exact words for, that I would not. I think the sum of the material available on Cpod is still not equal to the amount of material one would encounter growing up and being educated in a Chinese speaking environment. As to the caveats, ok, I haven't more than listened casually to the Media lessons, by studying a newbie or elementary lesson, I just mean that I listen long enough to make sure I know the words in it, and there were some early advanced lessons that disappeared and I didn't save a copy when I had the chance.
The HSK was more interesting to attempt than I thought it would be. When I tried the sample test, I found I had to improve in three areas: listening to a short dialog and getting its meaning on the first hearing, improve my reading speed by not stopping to look things up when I encountered an unrecognized word, and my ability to write characters by hand was near zilch. I don't know if I passed, yet. I left the test feeling that I might not have, but I think the discipline of preparing for the test did improve my Chinese. (I could score around level 4 on the practice tests, but the actual test seemed harder.)
Well, the experiment will continue.
bababardwan
May 10, 2009 at 10:28 PM
antony73 and user080509,
Thanks for those links guys.Can't wait to check 'em out.
tingyun
May 08, 2009 at 08:39 PM
Back in 07 John blogged about some (then) upcoming changes to the HSK - not sure if they got implemented or not. IF they did, it sounds like the grammer sections may be gone.
http://www.sinosplice.com/life/archives/2007/09/16/a-report-on-the-new-hsk
Personally I'm not really interested in the HSK - heck, I couldn't handwrite a timed english essay and get a decent score, at least not one legible enough for graders to read. Though I certainly do want to understand news broadcasts, some day. Is cctv news available online?
pretzellogic
May 08, 2009 at 08:32 PM
Henning,
Thanks for your thoughts; that's a good detailed explanation. I guess that it would ultimately be fair to say that Cpod's goal isn't to teach us to pass the HSK anyway, but more to give us tools to learn mandarin tailored to our needs.
I think you point to something interesting. I'm not sure where Ken is going to take cpod. One day, 5 years from now, will there be 3000 lessons, but will these be 1500 newbie, 500 elementary, 500 intermediate, 500 advanced and so on? So that it's really more of the same thing we see now on the site, and more tools that facilitate mandarin learning , but no character training, limited arcane dialog so we can really learn to speak like a native? I've noticed that really cool lessons pop up, like movie madness, or qinqwen, then the person leaves that thought that lesson idea up, and cpod moves on (with the exception of qingwen).
I agree, everyone has different capabilities when it comes to learning mandarin, or any topic for that matter. It also matters how much time people are willing to put into learning the topic as well. I think that's why i stopped subscribing; i wasn't putting the time in the way I needed to. Unfortunately, this is coming back to bite me with the move to Beijing, and the daily embarrasment that comes from inadequate communication tools with the locals.
henning
May 08, 2009 at 07:18 PM
pretzellogic,
some explanations on the HSK and the differences between the HSK and the CPod approach.
Vocab: The HSK Intermediate focusses on written and formal language. Difficulty and vocab are about comparable to CPod Advanced. That reduces the number of available Cpod lessons from 1,400 to 165. In the mockup tests I saw, I found some critical expressions that I learned in CPod advanced lessons. But I estimate that we needed at least two or three thousand Advanced lessons to go through all those expressions that might come up in the HSK.
Variety is crucial. They expect from you to be able to understand sentences with DNA, intercontinental ballistic missles, nuclear power plants, you name it. The Cpod approach is gold for that.
Style: As we all know, written language is not stressed at CPod. Actually, much closer to the HSK language are Goulnik's news. Most of the HSK reading comprehension tasks follow exactly those news in style, language, and topics. In short, they expect you to be able to easily read a newspaper and follow a CCTV news broadcasts (Some reading materials are really off, however. In one official mockup there were formal library rules - didn't even get the gist.)
Details and grammar: They really ask tricky grammar questions which aim at testing fore minute differences between all those function words (some of those haven't even come up once at CPod) and wether you are firm with your complements. CPod unfortunately only teaches that "let's compare A, B, and C" for the lower levels with QingWen
Handwriting characters: That one is obvious, I guess.
Conclusion. Working through the CPod library just cannot get you to the HSK Intermediate. I am confident, however, that one day we will see a true "full service approach" here.
antony73
May 08, 2009 at 10:22 AM
bababarbwan
Mock test links:
http://www.chinese-forums.com/showthread.php?t=23389
How to Prepare:
http://www.hsk.org.cn/intro/prep_e.html
I'm still waiting to hear from HSK.org.cn about the HSK Test Syllabus. I'll let you know if and when they reply.
waitingroom
I don't know if you can take the test again, I can't see why anyone wouldn't be able to.
You've been studying one and a half years and can understand the Advanced written dialogues! That's really great. I guess it demonstrates what I wrote above, it's not always the amount of lessons a person learns that determines a person's level.
My listening comprehension is also not up to my speaking or reading level. Does anyone have any radical advice from on how to improve listening comprehension as I've tried most things?
Nice one waitingroom - again, another inspirational comment
waitingroom
May 08, 2009 at 07:24 AM
Speaking of the HSK - is it possible to take the HSK (for the same level) twice, even if you passed it the first time round? I'd like to sit the HSK (intermediate) this autumn, but by that time, I'll have studied Chinese for a mere 1.5 years. On the other hand, I will devote the next two months solely 为了提高我的中文水平, learning how to write the characters by hand, taking mock exams. On top of that, I'll spend almost 2 months in China. After that, there will still be some time left to practise. Right now, I can understand most of the Advanced dialogues when reading them, my listening comprehension is lagging behind a bit. I've never had any formal teaching. Do you think I have a realistic chance of passing the test with a good grade?
bababardwan
May 08, 2009 at 05:27 AM
antony73,
Can I ask where you found the mock basic HSK test? I'd love to have a look.
Great thread Mark.Good luck mate.
antony73
May 07, 2009 at 07:22 PM
pretzellogic
I know what you mean, although I see it differently. Studying is only one step to learning Mandarin, it's where you go from there that makes all the difference. Two people could listen to all 1200+ lessons, and depending how they used and responded to each and every lesson could both finish at completely different levels in using Mandarin.
I looked through a mock basic HSK test after reading Mark's post, and I can't see why even a learner who is well grounded at the elementary level couldn't take the basic test.
I felt very inspired by this post to build a firmer foundation (ie. learn to read and write more characters, even at my low level) and make more use of the lessons I take, both mentally and in practice.
pretzellogic
May 07, 2009 at 11:12 AM
Hi Mark,
Interesting post. I was taking a different lesson from your post; that despite more than 1000 lessons from Cpod, passing the HSK may be problematic. Not because cpod doesn't teach you most of what you need, but in practice, many people don't retain 100% of every lesson needed for fluency. Somehow, this isn't encouraging.
changye
May 07, 2009 at 10:46 AM
对世界上绝大多数人来说，汉语还不是非学不可的语言。无论好坏，学习英语的重要性仍然远远大于汉语。但是我认为这并不是坏事。现在很多外国人学中文主要不是因为工作需要，而是因为对中国有兴趣，所以外国人一般对学习中文的态度比较轻松。这样的学习态度可以让外国人更加了解中国文化，而且更喜欢中国。
henning
May 07, 2009 at 07:17 AM
lixy,
不过学习中文对我们不算折磨， 是我们的爱好，太好玩儿！
你们收折磨， 我们享受乐趣， 世界不公平！
开玩笑。 我确信如果不能把学习转为娱乐就效率不太高。。。
mark
May 07, 2009 at 05:49 AM
Henning, yes, I took the Intermediate HSK. Compliments and similar evil critters are probably one of the next bottlenecks in my progress, and one of the reasons that I don't have much hope of testing above level 4, if I even did that well.
Timbendersis, I study lessons in about a 4 week pipeline, where the last two weeks are just listening to the dialogs while I commute. I don't have any systematic review method beyond that. Sometimes when I try to use Chinese, I remember that the word I want was in a CPod lesson and look it up that way, though.
Christian, other materials that I have used include: movies, 成语故事， an introductory textbook (Ultimate Mandarin), Rosetta Stone, local native speakers, and IM with 网友。 So, I'm not a pure Cpod product, but it is my primary resource, now.
antony73
May 06, 2009 at 09:15 PM
timbendersls
I've been using flash cards to review old material. If a card has a word from a chinesepod lesson, on the answer side I include a sentence from the lesson with the answer, and maybe some context if needed.
I also do regular reviews with the Dialogue, Fix and PDF. So say every four weeks or so I'll spend a week reviewing material from maybe three months ago.
I noticed a feature on chinesepod yesterday in the Personal RSS Feed that I'd not noticed before, where once a week previous lessons chosen randomly can be added to a personal feed.
tingyun
May 06, 2009 at 07:16 PM
Congratulations! I'm working towards the same goal, but still a very long way off. Only have the Ele's and half the Intermediates under my belt, nothing above that. Your story is inspiring to your fellow obsessive-must-hear-everything types.
A quick question - any suggestions on review methods for the old materials? I've been using the approach of stringing all the dialogue files into a long playlist for the car/gym/cleaning house, though even with my much more limitied breadth its already around 3 hours long - probably would be something closer to a full day, with your amount. Do you review heavily, or mainly rely on new lessons to review old patterns and words?
christian
May 06, 2009 at 07:05 PM
Interesting report, Mark. Just finding the time to listen to the entire archive of CPod lessons is a feat in itself.
I'm curious, what did you use before discovering CPod? Are there any other materials you use beside the podcasts?
Let us know when the HSK results come in. I wish you a lot of success :)
user76423
May 06, 2009 at 05:21 PM
Thank you Mark for sharing your study methods and experiences. Great job!
It shows me that I don't do enough for my progress in Chinese :-(
henning
May 06, 2009 at 06:38 AM
Hi mark,
thanks for the insights! So you took the Intermediate HSK?
I definately find some striking similarities with my own situation (esp. reading speed and writing). Did you master stuff like complements, e.g. 上来， 上去, 下来, or 下去? Those evil little critters usually throw me off at HSK mock up tests.
Maybe this is a nice documentation of the strengths and weaknesses of a pure-blood CPod approach. With vocab and an adequate feel for the flow for the language being the major strengths. Admittingly the foundation of a thorough language acquisition, although it would be nice to fill the voids.
I wonder if other "vererans" (pre V3 poddies) share those experiences.
zaneclaes
May 06, 2009 at 03:57 AM
你好Mark,
你的中文考试报告很有意思。准备的方法很多，可是我也认为在前一晚上休息一下很有用。而且我觉得我们都应该用很多练习的方法。每天练习一样的话，外语的能力不太使用。最近我发现很多人在这个中文博客的网站要开始看中国电视，听中文博客，等等。我很兴奋因为学习中文的体团一天比一天大。
反正，我也觉得你的话题很有意思。你知道"metacognition"的意思吗？无论要学习什么话题，这个想法是一个很重要的主题。
好好学习！
《21：00我编辑了。不好意思，中文水平还不是那么高所以还有很多的错误》
mark
May 06, 2009 at 03:30 AM
2009-04-22
参加汉语水平考试
准备参加考试精神很重要，所以在前一晚上我认为休息比学习重要，特别对广泛的主题来说，如语言。 我从八个星期以前开始复习了样题几次，而且发现我最大的弱点是没有上下文时的听力，读的速度和用手写汉字。结果我想到了一些方法自己把这些方面弥补，有机会就多看，用手反复写东西和多听。我认为在每个方面我都有点进步，但是进步不快，所以多用功几个小时也不会影响我的成绩而没有精神才会影响我的成绩。为此我很早就睡觉了。旧金山的停车地方很少，所以我提早去，开车的时候我听中文音乐清醒自己的中文脑子。我等待考试开始的时候参观校园让自己放松。除了我以外其他的考生都很年轻。看来主办人怀疑是否我配合那个考试。她来到我的座位与我说说看中文。总之我考了之后我对自己的速度感觉很满意而对自己的正确率我感觉不确定，所以我必须等一个月才知道我是否考上了三或四级，还是都考不上。我要有耐心，但是这是不容易的。
mark
April 21, 2009 at 06:29 AM
Hi Honker,
I do watch Chinese videos and occasionally listen to a local Chinese radio station. Traffic, weather and stock reports are probably the easiest to get a handle on for the latter, because there is a lot of repetition.
I haven't found a movie that I can watch over and over again though. However, I like Shaw Bros movies, because the dialogs tend to be pretty simple, but they are old and a little hoaky in regard to production values.
honker
April 21, 2009 at 05:10 AM
Hi Mark!
I admire your discipline and consistency.
I commend you on studying all the lessons on CPod. That's NO small feat! I've made that a goal as well. You give me hope.
I have a question for you concerning listening to short dialogues. I have recently begun to purchase movies, dramas, and documentaries in Mandarin. Most of these have subtitles using simplified characters. I begin by making a small glossary and watch it over and over.
Do often watch videos as well? If so, has this helped your listening comprehension quite a bit? An experienced Japanese teacher in Japan told me to pick a favorite movie and watch it and listen to it over and over again until I understood every word and nuance. I learn fast using this technique but others may learn faster by speaking, writing, or reading. I'm just curious if you have included such methods in your own study.
I hope to learn a lot from you!
sophie0608
May 12, 2009 at 03:19 PMhehe,mark is getting a superstar in chinese pod, his diligence in chinese impress us, we should work harder.
Cai long is a respectable eunuch due to invent the paper making in china history, sure he got lots of supports from the queen at that time. except that, Cailong is well versed in sword and stuff like that. however his last time in life is a tragedy