Does the writing system have an impact on the language?
henning
May 01, 2009, 06:56 AM posted in General DiscussionYesterday evening my (Chinese) collegue and I discussed what would happen if China in fact abondoned 汉字 and switched to Pinyin only.
We agreed that Pinyin is virtually unreadable - pure pain, due to all the ambiguities and homophones. But would this in fact foster a slow change of the language? At least the written language can be expected to be altered - more multi syllable words, more redundancy, more words with distinct pronounciation.
And would this also feed through into the spoken language? Or vice versa: Does Chinese have so many homophones because of its semantically rich characters? Changye's posts on the development of tones and sounds seem to support this hypothesis (e.g. sounds that fell together over time, tones that vanished - all more widespread in Mandarin than in dialects that are primarily passed down in spoken form).
My collegue made a good point - if this would be true, you should be able to observe similar effects in Japanese, as Japan has already left pure 汉字 behind by introducing hiragana and katagana. Did this have an impact on the language?
Any linguist out there who knows more?
henning
May 02, 2009, 07:30 PMzhenlijiang,
there is another interesting difference here - in the German version, neither "Scha", nor "den" or "de" do have a meaning on their own. The characters however pump meaning in every little component of a word. This encourages further compressing - which in turn might influence the language as a whole from a different side.
sue3,
as you said: it is a matter of context - and there is more context in the richer, spoken language than in the written form. And besides: The messages you try to put into formal written communication is often more complex, more differenciated, and more abstract than your everyday spoken communication. It is thereby easier affected by ambiguity.
I also noticed that often spoken Chinese seems to indeed prefer "longer versions". Simple example: Where there is a 的时候 in the spoken version you often only find a 时 in more formal, written stuff...
lechuan
May 01, 2009, 07:54 PMI wonder if that's why Korea and Japan still use chinese characters, to solve the homophone problem?
changye
May 02, 2009, 03:58 AMNorth Korea abandoned using Chinese characters soon after the war. South Korea gradually banished Chinese characters in the past several decades, and you can hardly see Chinese characters in books and newspapaers in modern Korean society. Eliminating Chinese characters meant complete independence from China and Japan for Korean people.
The problem is that Korean language is full Chinese words mainly made in China and Japan, which generates tons of homonyms in Korean. I hear that Chinese words accout for more than 50% of words listed in large Korean dictionaies. Below is an article from a Korean newspaper, and red colored words are Chinese words.
‘세무조사 무마를 위해 여러 곳에 시계를 선물했다’는 의혹을 받고 있는 박연차 태광실업 회장은 5년 동안 수십 개의 시계를 구입했던 것으로 드러났다고 동아일보가 2일 보도했다.
이 신문에 따르면 박 회장은 지난해 7~8건의 시계 구입 기록을 남겼고, 지난 5년간은 이 같은 시계 구입 흔적을 보였다. 이 자료는 박 회장이 10년 가까이 단골로 출입했던 부산의 한 명품시계전문점 사장 정모(53)씨가 검찰 조사를 받으며 국세청과 검찰에 제출한 내용이라는 것.정씨는 “박 회장은 통이 큰 데다 개인적으로 시계를 무척 좋아하는 성격이라 지인에게도 주로 시계를 선물하는 것 같았다”, “박회장이 시계를 구입할 때는 나에게 전화로 직접 부탁한 뒤 직원이 와서 가져가는 경우도 있었다”라고 이 신문에 말했다.
I hear that disuse of Chinese characters has caused the following (slight) change in linguistic habits in Korean society.
(1) People tend to avoid using big words both in conversation and in writings because it's not easy to guess the meanings of unfamiliar Chinese words.
(2) Some scholars have been trying to promote new words, which are invented based on indigenous Korean words, instead of using Chinese words. But these attemps have not been successful so far due to their "redundancy". These new words are too "explanatory" and long.
If Chinese people abandoned using Chinese characters, the change (1) might happen first.
henning
May 02, 2009, 05:45 AMChangye,
in the west, "big words" are usually literally big, i.e. they consist of many letters. Maybe, Koreans should just import some of ours...
I wonder if there are German word imports in Korean. I heard they cloned the fundamental German laws (BGB, HGB). This is why law departments in German Universities are populated by a surprisingly large portion by Korean students.
hitokiri6993
May 02, 2009, 06:23 AMVocab (from Changye's post) anyone correct me if there's anything wrong here:
세무조사 = 稅務調査=Tax audit
위하다= to respect (am I right?) = from 爲
시계(時計)=clock
선물(先物)=futures; as in future contract
의혹(疑惑) suspicion;doubt;distrust
태광=no idea(help!)
실업(失業) unemployment
or
실업(實業) industry
회장(會長) the president 《of a society》;the chairman 《of a committee, an assembly》
년(年)=year
수십(數十) several tens;scores;dozens
개(個·介·箇) a piece;a unit;an item
구입(購入) purchase;buying;procurement
동아일보=Dong-A Daily News
- 동아(東亞) East Asia
- 일보(日報) a daily (newspaper)
일(日) -day
보도(報道) news;a report;information;intelligence ―하다 report;inform[notify] 《a person》
신문(新聞) a newspaper;a paper;
건(件) a case;a subject;a matter;an affair;
기록(記錄) a record;
년간(年間) during a certain period
흔적(痕跡/痕迹) marks;traces;vestiges;a track;signs;indications;evidences
자료(資料) material;data
출입(出入) coming and going;going in and out;entrance and exit ―하다 go[come] in and out;enter and leave;frequent
한 ＝no idea
명품(名品) luxury goods
전문점(專門店) a specialty store
사장(死藏) dead storage;hoarding- 하다 hoard;keep in dead storage;keep 《a thing》 idle
검찰(檢察) examination;investigation and prosecution
국세청(國稅廳) the National Tax Service
제출(提出) presentation;submission;proposition;introduction
내용(內容) contents;substance;(subject) matter
개인적(個人的) - individual's
성격(性格) character;personality
지인(知人) an acquaintance;a friend
주(主) the main[chief] part;the principal part
전화(電話) a telephone;a phone
직접(直接) immediateness;direct contact
부탁(付託) asking;a request;a favor;solicitation;entreaty
직원(職員) the staff《총칭》;the personnel;the faculty(대학 따위의);
경우(境遇) 【형편】circumstances;a situation;【사례】a case;an instance;【때】anoccasion;a time;a moment
Don't thank me...thank hanja.naver.com
changye
May 02, 2009, 06:42 AMHi hitokiri
Almost!
사장 社長 (company president)
선물 膳物 (present, gift)
위하다 (為하다) (for the sake of)
태광 泰光 This is the name of a company!
한 is an indigenous Korean word for "one". I made a mistake, sorry!
changye
May 02, 2009, 06:55 AMHi henning,
There are some loanwords from German used in Korean, and most of them were imported through Japanese when Korea was under Japanese rule. I guess that there are more German-originated words used in Japanese than in Korean, because Korean people have been trying to purge "Japanesque" loanwords, even if they are actually originated in countries other than Japan.
아르바이트 (Arbeit)
봄베 (Bombe)
룸펜 (Lumpen)
노이로제 (Neurose)
프레파라트 (Praparat)
테마 (Thema)
기브스 (Gips)
겔렌데 (Gelande)
샬레 (Schale)
데마 (Demagogie)
hitokiri6993
May 02, 2009, 07:04 AMHi changye叔叔.
Thanks for the corrections and I still don't believe that you're just an elementary student of Korean. :P
zhenlijiang
May 02, 2009, 07:14 AMhenning,
For the same reason do med schools in Germany also have a significant Korean contingent? So much of the terminology is German, Japanese med students too of course study it.
Recently though there's been a move, in clinical contexts, to get the appropriate Japanese term to take root in place of such terminology as "informed consent" for instance, which again, as a relatively new concept we have been using straight from the English katakana-ized. And now I forget of course, what Japanese was being proposed, as it hasn't quite taken root. It's been pointed out that esp for the elderly, all these "used-as-imported" terms are difficult to understand and very unhelpful. All part of the badly-needed improvement of medical services in Japan.
(for some reason I'm really looking forward to tagging some future post of mine "irrelevant question".)
PS: Wish we were hearing from some "actual" Korean poddies too! Are you there--?
changye
May 01, 2009, 08:47 AMMaybe some Korean poddies would give us an answer about this topic.
changye
May 02, 2009, 08:14 AMHi henning
As is often the case, some of these loanwords have meanings that are different from original ones.
아르바이트 (Arbeit) side job, moonlighting
봄베 (Bombe) cylinder, canister
룸펜 (Lumpen) vagabond, bum
노이로제 (Neurose) neurosis
프레파라트 (Praparat) prepared slides for microscope
테마 (Thema) theme
기브스 (Gips) plaster cast for medical use
겔렌데 (Gelande) slope for skiing
샬레 (Schale) petri dish
데마 (Demagogie) false rumor
radi
May 02, 2009, 09:38 AMI'm a chinese,if
radi
May 02, 2009, 09:44 AMHi I'm a chinese,if you know china,i will like talk about it,but you will teach english for me.I very like englis,but how is study it.
我是一个中国人，如果你们想了解中国，我愿意跟你们交流。但你们要教我英语，我非常喜欢英语，但我不知道怎么学好它啊，非常乐意与你们做朋友。
zhenlijiang
May 02, 2009, 05:06 PMhenning,
Yeah I love how you have that one word for what in Chinese is the 成语 幸灾乐祸--just luscious.
henning
May 02, 2009, 05:19 PMBut guess what, that one word spans across 4 syllables:
Scha-den-freu-de.
:)
zhenlijiang
May 02, 2009, 06:05 PM... yes, and to express the same in Japanese or English you require:
毀損の喜び (kison no yorokobi) "joy in damage" - 7 syllables
... but to many Japanese that will not mean anything, esp w/out context. Much more common to say
他人の不幸は蜜の味 (ta-nin no fukou wa mitsu no aji) "the misfortune of another is the taste of honey" - 11
pleasure derived from another's misfortune - 11
Definitely luscious--as 成语s are.
(OK I really need to get back to work now)
Sue
May 02, 2009, 06:36 PMAh, but isn't spoken Chinese pinyin with only the distinction of the 4 (or 5) tones ? So how do we get our mind around the fact that we manage quite well with pinyin in the spoken language (the context determines which "shi3" or whatever is meant - apparently without too much ambiguity) and yet we need the characters in written Chinese ? Why this discrepancy ?
RJ
May 02, 2009, 07:19 PMSue - Good question. There are also many characters with several meanings, depending on context, so they are not absolute either.
henning
May 02, 2009, 07:58 AMThanks for all the facinating input!
changye,
those are indeed strange choices for word import...工作， 炸弹, (擦)布， 破衣服， 神经官能症/神经病， 制剂， 主题， 石膏 , 地形, 碗, 哗众取宠 (?).
Kindergarten, Rucksack, Schadenfreude (sigh, Blitzkrieg) might be concepts not available in English. But don't they have rags, bombs, bowls, topics or terrains in Japan and Korea??
zhenlijiang,
I don't know about med schools. Long ago, when I was studying for my final exams in the University of Cologne, I used to spend a lot of time in the law library - because it was the only one that was opening at 6 in the morning. And it was filled with Koreans. So I asked some good friends who went for the dark side and became lawyers what the reason was behind this. And that was the answer.
zhenlijiang
May 01, 2009, 07:38 AMirrelevant question (lol!) sorry--i'm not here to attempt an answer to your very interesting question. 我是个光看而不贡献的顾客 再来吧
what a nightmare of a what if you bring up though! the end of the world, if you ask me.