(REVISED) Please give grammar help!!!

xiaophil:

“I was writing a letter."“我那时正在写一封信” (合适)

甲：你今晚干什么？

乙：我会听着我的MP3。 Sound weird. 乙 can say: 我会听MP3. or just: 我听MP3.

When the clock strikes 7, I will have been listening to that man (talk)for two hours.) you can say: 到7点的时候，我就听那个男人说了两个小时话了。 Maybe it's a good translation, but  not real Chinese.

Attention everyone:

I made a final post regarding this subject and put it here.

cassielin谢谢你来看我的帖子，我也觉得paulinurus和changye中文说得棒极了！

哈哈，xiaophil的这个帖子很受大家欢迎啊~~~看来大家都有很多学习汉语的故事哦！paulinurus，你确实很厉害哦，才学一年半就能够把中文说的这么好，很多朋友学习中文好几年都不怎么敢用中文和人交流呢。这一点你做的很好哦！changye是我们这里非常有实力的用户，他对中文的理解很多时候都强过我这个中国人，我很佩服他，他很牛！很高兴能够在这里和大家一起学习！一起努力吧！我的英语语法也很差，但是没关系，书山有路勤为径，学海无涯苦作舟！

Hi Changye,

不敢当啊！我认为任何人能真快学汉语假如每天读和写中文。加油！

Hi Miantiao,

哪里佩服啊，我的中文还很差，词汇量没有大。

关于学中文语法的事，我同意过分的重视语法方面可能妨碍学者学语言的进步。如果我住在中国的话，我一定对中文口语给更重要的方面。语言环境很重要，你们真幸运，每天能 和本地人用中文聊天。学中文的人们不在中国住的没有这样的机会，只有跟中文课本练习了。

The word 就 is frequently used in Cpod's diagloues, so I've compiled from 3 grammar books  the different meanings and ways 就 is used in Chinese sentences. There may  be some more meanings and uses of 就 but so far all the Chinese sentences I've come across with 就 fit into one of the following seven categories.

Using 就

jiu4 is an adverb. Its functions:

1. Signal a relationship of sequences between events occurring in a series. It often occurs with 以后 yi1hou4 (after).

我学了中国历史以后就想去中国。wo3 xue2 le Zhong1guo2 li4shi3 yi3hou4  jiu4  xiang3 qu4 Zhong1guo2.

就 is also used to link two verb phrases to signal a relationship of sequence between them. It has the meaning of ‘then'.

他如果喝醉了我们就送她回家。ta1 ru2guo4 he1zui4 (to get drunk) le, wo3men jiu4 (then) song4 ta1 hui2 jia1. Note the V-le structure  喝醉了.

她很聪明。一学就会。She is really smart. As soon as she studies it, she gets it.

Note words meaning ‘then' : 就 (then), 才 (only then), 再 (then)

要是你不舒服，那么就别来了。lit: if you not well, in-that-case then don't come le.

他做完了功课才上楼去睡觉。ta1 zuo4 wan3 le gong1ke4 cai2 shang4 lou2 qu4 shui4jiao4. lit: she do finish le homework only-then step upstairs go sleep.

Use 就 to complete a series of action verbs:

她洗了脸，刷了牙，脱了衣服，就上床睡觉去了。ta1 xi3 le lian3, shua1 le ya2, tuo1 le yi1fu, jiu shang chuang2 shui4jiao4 qu4 le. lit: she washed face, brushed teeth, took-off clothes, then get-on bed sleep go.

Use 再 to mean ‘then' in making requests  relating to naturally projected rather than completed action:

茶刚泡上，闷一会儿再喝。cha2 gang1 pao4 shang4, men1 yi1huir4 zai4 he1.

lit: tea just steeped, brew a while then drink.

2. When就appears before a verb, it conveys the meaning of uniqueness. In many cases, it means ‘only'.

我就有一块钱。

In some contexts, 就 conveys precise identification of a noun phrase.

我就是。

If the noun phrase is a specifier (这，那) or a directional expression, 就 means ‘right' or ‘precisely'.

图书馆在那那儿？ 就在火车站的对面。

3. 就 usually precedes negation, but it may also follow negation e.g.

这件事情不就是我一个人知道。Zhe4 jian4 shi4qing bu4 jiu4 (only) shi4 wo3 yi1 ge4 ren2 zhi1dao5. This matter it is not just I who knows.

4.   就 (only/just) can be used interchangeably with 只。In the sentence above, 只 can be used instead of 就 i.e. 这件事情不只是我一个人知道。

5。When 就 is used with 要 (planned probability meaning ‘about to') 就 has the meaning of ‘soon'.

火车就要开了。lit: train soon about-to start (leave). The train is about to leave.

6. 就 also used as a marker of immediacy:

我就来。I'll be right there.

7. 就 meaning ‘according to'

就我来说，还是不去好。lit: according-to I come say, still not go good. In my view, it is best not to go.

Paulinurus, that really is pretty amazing. And yeah, sort of puts me in a blue funk.

Now I'd also like to say that I don't see anyone here being "nuts" or fixated on grammar points, definitely not to the extent that it's detrimental. It's just that it's harder discussing and becoming clear on things when we're doing it all by text, on the boards as opposed to person-to-person in the same physical room. Texting it often takes a lot more going back and forth.

I just don't want anyone here, in a learning place, to feel like they have to apologize, or give reasons to justify themselves when they're only trying to make sure they understand something.

Sorry about the English, have to run now.

Hi paulinurus

哇！吓死我了，同时，气死我了！我很同意miantiao, 你才学了一年半汉语已经有那么高的水平，真佩服你呀。不过这件事你最好不要告诉别人，因为这里大多数人都肯定会“沮丧”，你的话会让大家失去对自己的信心，哈哈。对了，你说的很对，学习语法对巩固语言基础很有利。我们继续努力学习吧！

Hi paul,

你就学了一年半的中文而你中文已经写得这么不错了干嘛你呀？

佩服！

我不是不同意语法是很重要的。虽说语法作为语言的基础， 我不过认为 （据我的经验）要是学者过分的重视语法方面而忽略其他的实用方面，那就会妨碍你更快进步。

我去年开始学中文。另外自己念中文，我每周一次去夜校上课，上了20个课程。今年二月我来了这里学的，一共已经我学了一年半的中文。现在我正在学习语法 。学语法是个很难的事，但是我觉得建造语言的基础是必要的。

If you are in the PRC, I just recommend you get “现代汉语八百词” (商务印书馆), which is a sort of bible for Chinese grammar. It contains about one thousand (not eight hundred) words and phrases with a lot of example sentences and detailed explanations (in Chinese) on how to use them correctly. I think newbie/elementary learners should also buy this book while you are here. I guarantee you would find it very helpful when you become an intermediate learner in the near future.

现代汉语八百词 (highly recommended)
http://product.dangdang.com/product.aspx?product_id=450460

汉语动词用法词典 (recommended)
http://bookd.bi3jia.com/bookcmp_46774.html

汉语形容词用法词典 (recommended)
http://www.haotushu.com/book/408519/

Thanks Changye. That's what I wanted to know (not that you necessarily have to use 那时 but that it would have to be either context, or other words, to indicate the past).

P/S. There is a typo in my previous comment, as always.

A saint's made maid quotes Latin.

changye:

要是你喜欢语法的话，我就坚持继续学习语法。你是我的偶像，你真有掌握外语的天赋。

Grammar haters:

我知道有的人看不起语法，这个部分没关系，各人有各人的想法，但是我觉得最好是你们讨厌语法的人证明你们自己的中文能力这么优秀的，应该更多用中文表示你们的看法吧!

(By the way, this challenge is all in good humor.)

I don't think that you should adhere to grammar rules at the early stage of learning Mandarin, but you would find that comprehensive knowledge of grammar is very important when you are an intermediate (and above) learner, or at least it won't hurt you. If you are a linguistically talented guy, just forget about grammar. You might be able to master Mandarin through practice without flipping grammar books. Unfortunately, the "A saint's made quotes Latin" strategy doesn't work for me, who started learning Mandarin after turning forty.

Hi changye

哈哈，江山易改，本性难移。

Hi miantiao

哈哈，你还是老样子，我放心了！

@pauli

你懂个屁你呀！每一次发帖子都不敢写中文，你有什么资格来批评我啊？我那里说语法不重要？你好像还对我抱着仇恨，是吗？小孩子，别响了！

Here we go again! Each time a poddie wants to learn grammar at Cpod the gammar haters crawl out from their caves to spew their wisdom on the futility of learning Chinese via the grammar route. They flame the familiar signal ... if you are interested in gammar, don't come to Cpod, unless you are willing to fight us. 

The Chinese permanent residents in Canada can be generally categorized into two groups - those who have studied English formally, and those who have not. The ones who speak and write good English not only are very well integrated in the society, many of them also hold high paying jobs. The rest remain in pockets of Chinese communities in stores and businesses as owners, workers, or servers. I heard that in China it is very difficult and unlikely for foreigners to work in large native companies.

Xiaophil is a young guy who is trying to learn Chinese properly, so please butt out.

I guess I'm now in for a fight... what are the words I should be using.. . ahh.. here they are

pick up some shielas

chase the fillies

feed the chooks

go trolloping

look for some arse

Hi changye,

that's my point regarding grammar-centric language aquisition.

another point i tried to make, and you have indirectly pointed out, is that one can play with one's grammar anyway one likes to,and still be understood by most native speakers. if one wants to make up a word for a single usage in some satire or joke one can. accordingly, how do you teach non-native speakers to comprehend meanings derived from such breaking of the rules? I'd say only through experience.

yoda(ugly looking bald, big-eared, short, fat, green creature in star-wars)  is easily understood by walking talking english speaking toddlers.(to be fair, yoda simply reverses subject/object syntax).

Hi miantial

I'm afraid your English is too difficult for me.

You're doing very well so far. One more question and your exam will be over.however you must answer correctly to pass.

can you give me an example of  'past future but not too perfect present discontinued continuing i'm presently very tense' sentence?

学生望着教授发呆

对了，考通了，恭喜恭喜！

chinese students of english learn and memorize no less than 16 tenses. analysing（the origin of this word looks suspicious to me) these tense rules and exceptions to the rules would even confuse shakespeare.

Hi zhenlijiang

I don't think you can make them "past tense" sentences without adding words that indicate time, which is an important characteristics of Mandarin. Here is another example.

我是一个学生。
I'm a student.

十年前我是一个学生。
I was a student ten years ago.

lujiaojie

多多谢谢你！我非常激动，你的解决很有用。

第六个我写错，应该是“I was writing a letter."我觉得“我那时正在写一封信”合适，是吗？

第十个肯定不完成吗？比如：

甲：你今晚干什么？

乙：我会听着我的MP三。

第十二个，我可不可以说“到7点的时候，我就听了两个小时那个男人的话了”？(When the clock strikes 7, I will have been listening to that man (talk)for two hours.)

Changye and Jiaojie, thank you for your replies.  I can see that if you simply remove the 那时 from those sentences as they are, you have nothing to indicate they refer to the past.

What I meant by my question was, is there no way to express these without using 那时?
I was reading that book.
I had been reading that book.

(Again, I guess with context it would be different from trying to make these stand-alone sentences work in the way we mean.)

1) Present Tense
I read books.
我看书。(OK)
2) Present Continuous Tense
I am eating food.
我正在吃饭。or 我在吃饭。
着 always used with "呢" to indicate that an action is in the progress. 正 can be used with “着呢”。"我正吃着饭呢。"depend on a context, may be 我正吃着饭呢, so I can't answer the phone.
I am eating at 6 o'clock.
You are right. 我六点吃饭. is the best one.
3) Present Perfect Tense (Received comments, but the more the merrier)
I have read that book.
我看过那本书了。(OK)
4) Present Perfect Continuous Tense
I have been watching a lot of TV.
我最近在看很多电视。最近can be several days, so no need to add "着”。
5) Past Tense
I read that book.我看了那本书。(OK)

6) Past Continuous Tense

I was reading a letter.我以前写着一封信。should be我那时正在读一封信。or 我那时正在读着一封信。着 can be used with "正在" to indicate that an action is in the progress.

7) Past Perfect Tense
I had read that book.
我已经看了那本书了。(OK)

8) Past Perfect Continuous Tense
I had been reading that book.
那时我一直在读那本书。( here 那时 can be several days.)

9) Future Tense
I will read that book.
我会看那本书。or 我会看那本书的。的 can be used at the end of a statement that not happened to indicate certainty.

10) Future Continuous Tense
I will be listening to my MP3 player.
我会听着我的MP3。This sentence is not complete, that could be 8点的时候， 我会听着我的MP3去上班。or something.

11) Future Perfect Tense
I will have finished reading that book by 10 pm.
我十点会看完那本书了。should be 我十点会看完那本书。
No need to add "了" .

12) Future Perfect Continuous Tense
When the clock strikes 7, I will have been listening to that man for two hours.
到7点，我就会听着那位男人两个小时了。
should be 到7点的时候，我就听了两个小时那个男人的歌了。(here the second了 indicate Continuous)

zhenlijiang：

changye is correct.

Hi zhenlijiang

If you don't use 那时, the two example sentences become "present continuous tense" and "present perfect continuous tense" ones respectively. In these examples, 那时 is the only word that implies "past".

Many thanks to Jiaojie 老师 and Xiaophil for this! I'm going to read these over more closely later this evening.

Regarding these two:

Past Continuous Tense
I was reading that book.
那时我正在看那本书。  那时means "at that time".

Past Perfect Continuous Tense
I had been reading that book.
那时我一直在看那本书。

Could they be written without the 那时?  Or would that be context-dependent and not really possible to express in stand-alone sentences like these?

Courtesy of lujiaojie (this was placed in the old post)

Hi xiaophil ,

Present Tense
I read books.
我看书。(OK)

Present Continuous Tense
I am reading a book.
我在看书。(OK)
I am reading a book tomorrow.
我明天会看着书。Should be 我明天会看书。“着” used after a verb or adiective to indicate the continuation of a state.

Present Perfect Tense
I have read that book.
我看过那本书。(OK)

Present Perfect Continuous Tense
I have been reading that book.
我最近在看着那本书。should be 我最近在看那本书。no need to add “着”。could be 那本书我正看着呢。

Past Tense
I read that book.
我看了那本书。or  我看过那本书。

Past Continuous Tense
I was reading that book.
我以前看那本书。should be 那时我正在看那本书。那时means "at that time".

Past Perfect Tense
I had read that book.
我已经看了那本书了。or 我已经看过那本书了。

Past Perfect Continuous Tense
I had been reading that book.
我以前看着那本书了。should be 那时我一直在看那本书。

Future Tense
I will read that book.
我会看那本书。(ok)

Future Continuous Tense
I will be reading a book.
我会看着书。should be 我会看书。no need to add “着”。

Future Perfect Tense
I will have finished reading that book by 10 pm.
我十点会看完那本书了。should be 我10点会看完那本书。no need to add “了”。There is 会看完，not 已经看完了。“已经...了” is a sentence pattern.

Future Perfect Continuous Tense
I will have been reading that book for 2 weeks.
到那个时候我已经看了那本书两个星期。should be 到那个时候我已经看了两个星期那本书了。or 到那个时候，那本书我已经看了两个星期了。(There should be a "le" at the end of sentence to indicate Continuous.)

The original post can be found here: http://chinesepod.com/community/conversations/post/5437

Thanks so much!

tanqingyun

Thanks for your input, but according to context could a person understand?

比如 “你什么时候吃饭？” “我六点吃饭”

但是我觉得最好是回答“我今天六点吃饭”

Question: I personally think that I am trying too hard to force English grammar into Chinese grammar, and that it would be good enough to say 我六点吃饭.  Am I right?not really."我六点吃饭"常常表示“i often eat at 6 o'clock"

Ideal comment method:

1) Present Tense (No comments thus far)

I read books.

我看书。

• Is the translation grammatically correct? Yes it is. (Or no because blah blah blah)
  
• Does the translation convey the original English meaning?  Yes it does.  (Or no because blah blah blah)
• Is the translation relatively natural (or at least not unbearably awkward)?  Looks fine.  (Or no because blah blah blah)
• Do you know an easier way?  Nope.  (Or yes because blah blah blah)

PS: You can comment however you like and it would be equally appreciated, but for clarity purposes it would be better if comments were in this format :).