得 and 的, why are these two still a problem for me?
xiaophil
February 11, 2010, 06:39 AM posted in I Have a QuestionYou would think that the distinction of these two particles would have been clear in my head a long time ago, but alas, no.
What specifically troubles me is the distinction between verb+得 and verb+的.
I understand the function of 得 a sentence like 他说得很快. It seems to me, although perhaps I'm false in looking at it this way, that putting 得 in front of a verb is like creating a gerund in English, i.e. adding 'ing' to a verb to create a noun. Thus, the example I just gave could be translated awkwardly as "His speaking is very quick."
But sometimes I run into a verb+的 sentence that I can't see why 的 was chosen and not 得. Take the following example from nciku:
他说的是很土的北京话。(He speaks with a broad Beijing accent.)
I can't for the life of me see the difference. Can anyone spell it out for me?
xiaophil
Changye
Okay, that makes sense to me. Thanks. What isn't so clear to me is when I can and cannot say 说得 and 说的. For example: can I say 他说的很快 (What he says is very quick)? If no, why not?
changye
Hi xiaophil
To me, both 他说的（话）很快 and 他（说话）说得很快 are acceptable, although I feel the latter one is more authentic, at least HSK-wise, hehe. On the other hand, you can "say" 他说的是很土的北京话, but not 他说得是很土的北京话.
xiaophil
Changye,
I think I see it. We cannot say 他说得是很土的北京话. because what follows the verb is a noun and not an adjective/adverb. Do you think that is right?
oxygem
@He speaks with a broad Beijing accent.
他满口的京片子。“京片子”is a local word for "Beijing dialect" nowadays.
For English learners, prepositions like "to", "of", and "at" often the causes of confusions. And "for", perhaps.
changye
HI oxygem
I have a question. Can young 北京人 speak and understand real Beijing dialect (地道的老北京土话) spoken by elderly people?
oxygem
Hi changye
I often find out that I can hardly understand what youngsters are talking about nowadays. Their language and their emotions is a combination of exotics with tradition. The trend of globalization, Japanese&Korean Trends greatly influrenced the post-90, even post-80 all over the country. But, the mode of thought followed by us continuously from generation to generation by home education. I really wonder why our parents have such a strong influence to their children.
oxygem
Sorry, changye, I have no idea about your question.
xiaoxiaotom
February 18, 2010, 08:00 AMI am not sure but I think that the original question has not really been answered.
For me it's quite clear: In the example phrase of 的 the preceding is not a verb but something like a substantive (I know this is not the right grammatical expression). So what follows does not modify the verb. An fair translation might thus be: What he is speaking is pure Beijing dialect. So what follows is not an adverb or adverbial construction，for which 得 would have to be used.
lechuan
February 11, 2010, 07:11 AMI don't believe '的' is used for verb modification. The '的' In"他说的是很..." is modifying the noun ("the words that he speaks are...").
I usually think of '得' as "-ly" ie. 他说得很快 "he speaks quickly". It is placed after the verb.
The 'de' that comes before the verb is'地'. ie. 他很快地说出来。I don't think it's very commonly used and that sentence probably sounds awkward to a native ear。
If you don't have acopy yet of "Modern Mandarin Chinese Grammar by Claudio Ross", I highly recommend it. It's the clearest grammar book I've found so far. It covers all the usages of 'de' above plus more.
changye
Hi lechuan
I agree with you. I personally think we learners of Mandarin should learn authentic grammar first, and then later get into the world of "约定俗成". Otherwise, you'll easily get confused.
xiaophil
Hey Lechuan,
Now this is interesting:
I usually think of '得' as "-ly" ie. 他说得很快 "he speaks quickly". It is placed after the verb.
I never thought of that. Thanks.
mattahmet
Claudia Ross's is the book I was consulting for the answer I posted below, as well! It's a great book and has an excellent work book that goes with it.
changye
February 11, 2010, 07:22 AMHi lechuan
I agree with you. I personally think we learners of Mandarin should learn authentic grammar first, and then later get into the world of "约定俗成". Otherwise, you'll easily get confused.
xiaophil
February 11, 2010, 07:47 AMHey Lechuan,
Now this is interesting:
I usually think of '得' as "-ly" ie. 他说得很快 "he speaks quickly". It is placed after the verb.
I never thought of that. Thanks.
mattahmet
February 11, 2010, 07:50 AMI've also heard that native speakers have problems with 的，得，as well as 地, which makes me feel better because it does seem confusing!
Here's a summary of the uses of and differences between the three, as far as I understand them!
的: This one has several uses. Following a verb, it creates a noun clause which can be the subject or object of a sentence.
你说的对。 What you say is true.
(Compare that to 你说得快。 (You speak quickly.) where 你 is the subject and 说得快 is the verbal predicate.)
得: action verb + 得 + adjective -- 得 and the adjective combine to form an adverb that describes the action verb. It's like adding -ly in English.
他说得快。He speaks quickly.
The description of the action doesn't have to be formed from a single adjective; it can be a phrase, as in this example from a reference book I have:
妈妈哭得眼睛都红了。Mom cried so much her eyes were red. (It describes something about her crying.)
得 can also be sandwiched in resultative verbs (and is replaced by 不 in the negative).
找得到 can find
找不到 cannot find
地: adjective + 地 + verb -- This also creates an adverb, but is only used to describe an single occurrence (as in a narrative), I believe. And if the adjective is a single syllable, it is doubled to become two syllables, the second of which becomes first tone. I believe the doubling is mandatory. Someone correct me on this, if I'm mistaken!
他快快地说：。。。 He quickly said, "..."
Xiaophil, your example他说的是很土的北京话。has a noun clause as its subject, which in English would sound unnatural (His speaking is a broad Beijing accent.) so we prefer to make an adverbial phrase using "with" to describe the verb "speak".
I hope this helps! It was a good review for me to think about the three de's and look them up in my reference books. :)
changye
Thanks for the great job. As you pointed out, even native speakers rather arbitrarily use 得，的，and 地, and they are partly attributed to typos when writing with PC. I heard somewhere before that the 得/的 problem already existed in the first half of the 20th century.
xiaophil
mattahmet,
Yes, it does help. Thanks so much. To put it in my own terms, it seems 说的 has to be followed by a noun or at least an implied one. The 得 in 说得 indicates an adverb will be formed.
mattahmet
Yeah, I think the way to look at it is that 的 is used for making adjective clauses followed by a noun, such as 你说的话 or 我吃的造反 or 发生的事 but the noun can be dropped (implied) when the meaning remains clear: 你说的，我吃的，发生的(?), so they act as nouns (called noun clauses) and can be the subject of a sentence (with a predicate consisting of an adjective, verb or 是+noun, like any other sentence).
mattahmet
February 11, 2010, 07:53 AMClaudia Ross's is the book I was consulting for the answer I posted below, as well! It's a great book and has an excellent work book that goes with it.
xiaophil
February 11, 2010, 06:58 AMChangye
Okay, that makes sense to me. Thanks. What isn't so clear to me is when I can and cannot say 说得 and 说的. For example: can I say 他说的很快 (What he says is very quick)? If no, why not?
oxygem
February 11, 2010, 08:14 AM@He speaks with a broad Beijing accent.
他满口的京片子。“京片子”is a local word for "Beijing dialect" nowadays.
For English learners, prepositions like "to", "of", and "at" often the causes of confusions. And "for", perhaps.
oxygem
February 11, 2010, 08:27 AMThe keys for 的地 below are what I had been taught in the elementary school.
Nouns./Adj.s + 的;
Verbs/Adv.s + 地
oxygem
February 11, 2010, 09:04 AMHi changye
I often find out that I can hardly understand what youngsters are talking about nowadays. Their language and their emotions is a combination of exotics with tradition. The trend of globalization, Japanese&Korean Trends greatly influrenced the post-90, even post-80 all over the country. But, the mode of thought followed by us continuously from generation to generation by home education. I really wonder why our parents have such a strong influence to their children.
xiaophil
February 12, 2010, 12:29 AMmattahmet,
Yes, it does help. Thanks so much. To put it in my own terms, it seems 说的 has to be followed by a noun or at least an implied one. The 得 in 说得 indicates an adverb will be formed.
mattahmet
February 12, 2010, 12:37 PMYeah, I think the way to look at it is that 的 is used for making adjective clauses followed by a noun, such as 你说的话 or 我吃的造反 or 发生的事 but the noun can be dropped (implied) when the meaning remains clear: 你说的，我吃的，发生的(?), so they act as nouns (called noun clauses) and can be the subject of a sentence (with a predicate consisting of an adjective, verb or 是+noun, like any other sentence).
changye
February 11, 2010, 08:02 AMThanks for the great job. As you pointed out, even native speakers rather arbitrarily use 得，的，and 地, and they are partly attributed to typos when writing with PC. I heard somewhere before that the 得/的 problem already existed in the first half of the 20th century.
changye
February 11, 2010, 06:51 AM他说的（话）是很土的北京话。
What he speaks is a real Beijing dialect.