Which 了s belong here and which don't.
xiaophil
March 01, 2010, 12:08 PM posted in I Have a QuestionYeah, it's true. I still don't get when to use 了. I have seen examples and explanations galore, but it seems everytime I write something and someone corrects my mistakes, there is a problem with 了. I just wrote the following comment in another post. I used 了 several times. If some of you dare to confront the dreaded 了, please take a look at the 了s and tell me if A) the are correct, B) not correct or C) optional. I would also be curious to know if I should have added any 了s somewhere else. Explanations would be a bonus. Thanks.
有一天我在一所英文培训学校参加了新雇员培训，那时还有两个别人参加了。到中午的时候，我们的教员说了那里周围有好多饭店。我说了“不好意思，我吃素，这里 周围有合适素食者的饭店？”然后另外一个“新雇员”同事说了“其实，我也吃素”，然后最后的新雇员同事说了“你们不会相信我，但是我也吃素”。其中三个新 雇员之内，百分之百是素食者！
PS: I was liberal with 了, sometimes placing it where I wasn't sure it had to be just to see people's reactions.
xiaophil
Zhen,
I was a little surprised that you had trouble with 到中午的时候. Not surprised as in "I think you should know better," but surprised as in I didn't think that would be a part someone would have a problem with. Yes, I mean something like, "When noon came around." I wonder if it is wrong, or just if it is just a way of saying things you aren't familiar with?
bodawei
March 04, 2010, 04:30 AMI just remembered that she told me that 参加 translated as 'an invitation where there is no choice' - but she noted that the word 参加 is not used that way any more.
xiaophil
March 01, 2010, 12:15 PMOkay guys, thanks for the input. I only have time to pop in for a second. Problem is, I noticed two things. A) the italics is just too hard to read, and B) I typed 同时 twice when I meant 同事. (That's what I get for posting on the fly... Sorry.) I made those changes, and will be back later, possibly tomorrow, to take a good look at what you said.
changye
March 01, 2010, 12:25 PMHi xiaophil
有一天.....我参加了～ or 有一天......我参加过～
那时（除了我以外）还有两个人参加
中午的时候 or 到了中午
I think all the "了"s placed after 说 is not necessary. The point is to minimize the use of “了” in a story happened in the past, I suppose. Please be noted that an action in the past "basically" doesn't need “了” in Chinese, in a sense, Chinese "past tense" is something like "historic present" in English.
zhenlijiang
I see now the 在参加 is strange there. I guess Xiaophil would also like to know not only if they are not necessary but also "would it be wrong, to leave the five 了's there". I'd like to be clear on that as well ... someday ...
bodawei
Hi Changye - I'd also like to know if you see any distinction between written and spoken Chinese? Can you 'get away with it' in spoken Chinese more than written?
Interesting about past tense being something like 'historic present' in English (I think I've read that from you before). I don't think I understand it exactly because I am not sure what 'historic present' is. I think it may be how I write my short stories - context makes it clear that I am telling a story (history) but I ignore the past tense form. Is that right? Is that what you mean about the Chinese - context allows you to ignore the past tense form?
zhenlijiang
March 01, 2010, 02:38 PMI see now the 在参加 is strange there. I guess Xiaophil would also like to know not only if they are not necessary but also "would it be wrong, to leave the five 了's there". I'd like to be clear on that as well ... someday ...
bodawei
March 02, 2010, 03:16 AMHi Changye - I'd also like to know if you see any distinction between written and spoken Chinese? Can you 'get away with it' in spoken Chinese more than written?
Interesting about past tense being something like 'historic present' in English (I think I've read that from you before). I don't think I understand it exactly because I am not sure what 'historic present' is. I think it may be how I write my short stories - context makes it clear that I am telling a story (history) but I ignore the past tense form. Is that right? Is that what you mean about the Chinese - context allows you to ignore the past tense form?
changye
March 02, 2010, 03:47 AMHi xiaphil
Below is an news article from a newspaper of today, which tells you a story that happeded the day before yesterday. You can find only two "了" in this article.
深圳读本记者 丰雷 报道 前日早晨，宝安区石岩街道罗租路一出租屋2楼，一名男子当场发现妻子红杏出墙，情敌裸身躺在妻子床上，被气得浑身发抖冲到阳台上要跳楼自杀，幸好被及时救下。 据目击者王先生介绍，前日早晨8时许，他下楼到楼梯门口时，一名醉醺醺的男子正和房东吵得不可开交，因醉酒男子不能出示证件，所以房东不让该男子上楼，但醉酒男子声称“我妻子就住2楼”，坚持要上楼。据 醉酒男子介绍，他姓谢，10年前，他在广州打工时与周女士相识，不久便结婚生有一对双胞胎。几年前，夫妇俩来深圳打工，孩子由周女士的父母抚养。因妻子是 大学生，很快便在石岩一家公司找到一份不错的工作，而他连初中都没毕业，只能在建筑工地干苦力，两人感情越来越淡。后来便听人说妻子搞婚外情，他曾多次为了孩子想挽回妻子的心，但是，妻子和情敌黄先生干脆辞掉工作，打算到其他地方去发展。虽然他们经常更换住处，但还是让他知道了临走前的住处，于是赶过来找妻子对质。据王先生介绍，谢先生上2楼后就敲门，当其妻子衣衫不整来开门时，谢先生又看见情敌黄先生全身赤裸躺在房间床上，顿时气得浑身发抖，随后转身冲到阳台上就要往楼下跳。据石岩派出所罗租警务室有关人士介绍，幸好一名出租屋管理员赶到，冲上去把谢先生拦腰抱住。周女士被吓坏了，不停念叨，“你怎么能这样做，家里还有两个孩子 呢”，最后，两夫妇被带回警务室进行调解。经民警劝说，谢先生慢慢从绝望中解脱出来，决定与周女士办理离婚手续。
xiaophil
Thanks Changye, as always, you the man! I'm still a bit too busy to take a clear look, but I promise you I will. I do have a question now. Do you think the omission of 了's in the above are merely related to written style? What I mean is, would a person telling another person about the text you provided above probably naturally add 了's? I hope you get my meaning.
changye
Hi xiaophil
I feel you would use more "了" in conversation than in writing. In any case, in Chinese “了” is not used to indicate "past", but to indicate "action completes", "situation changes" or "found something new", and this is the reason you can't place "了" after “说” in the text.
That said, honestly, I don't know for sure what kind of impression the "说了"s in your text would give native speakers. With regard to “一名男子当场发现～” in the first paragraph in the above news article, I guess you can also say “一名男子当场发现了～”, although I prefer not using “了” in this case.
Actually, the more I think about “了”, the more I realize it's difficult to properly use.
xiaophil
March 02, 2010, 04:33 AMThanks Changye, as always, you the man! I'm still a bit too busy to take a clear look, but I promise you I will. I do have a question now. Do you think the omission of 了's in the above are merely related to written style? What I mean is, would a person telling another person about the text you provided above probably naturally add 了's? I hope you get my meaning.
bodawei
March 01, 2010, 11:10 AMHi Xiaophil
(From another person who doesn't know - or is even less likely to know than Zhenlijiang) I will play the other side and say that all the 了 are fine. If you are relating a story in the past tense that is correct. It just could sound a little tedious, to me anyway, in the same way that repeated use of words in English, particularly written English, is tedious. You can get away with it in spoken language. Perhaps it does not sound tedious to Chinese ears?
Apropos nothing, I was alerted to an interesting use of 参加 when someone was cruising around with us in their car and they wanted to go into a gated area so we could get to a viewing point on a lake. They asked the 保安 。。可以参加吗？I had never heard it used this way before.
xiaophil
Bodawei,
Yes, 参加 is an interesting word as it is used in different ways than in English sometimes. My students always talk of "participating" in a party. Participating in a party? Sounds a bit of a stuffy party to me, but then again, Chinese parties are usually highly organized with people in clearly designated roles.
xiaophil
Bodawei,
Yes, 参加 is an interesting word as it is used in different ways than in English sometimes. My students always talk of "participating" in a party. Participating in a party? Sounds a bit of a stuffy party to me, but then again, Chinese parties are usually highly organized with people in clearly designated roles.
xiaophil
Bodawei,
Yes, 参加 is an interesting word as it is used in different ways than in English sometimes. My students always talk of "participating" in a party. Participating in a party? Sounds a bit of a stuffy party to me, but then again, Chinese parties are usually highly organized with people in clearly designated roles.
xiaophil
Bodawei,
Yes, 参加 is an interesting word as it is used in different ways than in English sometimes. My students always talk of "participating" in a party. Participating in a party? Sounds a bit of a stuffy party to me, but then again, Chinese parties are usually highly organized with people in clearly designated roles.
xiaophil
Bodawei,
Yes, 参加 is an interesting word as it is used in different ways than in English sometimes. My students always talk of "participating" in a party. Participating in a party? Sounds a bit of a stuffy party to me, but then again, Chinese parties are usually highly organized with people in clearly designated roles.
xiaophil
March 04, 2010, 12:22 AMBodawei,
Yes, 参加 is an interesting word as it is used in different ways than in English sometimes. My students always talk of "participating" in a party. Participating in a party? Sounds a bit of a stuffy party to me, but then again, Chinese parties are usually highly organized with people in clearly designated roles.
xiaophil
March 04, 2010, 12:27 AMBodawei,
Yes, 参加 is an interesting word as it is used in different ways than in English sometimes. My students always talk of "participating" in a party. Participating in a party? Sounds a bit of a stuffy party to me, but then again, Chinese parties are usually highly organized with people in clearly designated roles.
xiaophil
March 04, 2010, 12:44 AMBodawei,
Yes, 参加 is an interesting word as it is used in different ways than in English sometimes. My students always talk of "participating" in a party. Participating in a party? Sounds a bit of a stuffy party to me, but then again, Chinese parties are usually highly organized with people in clearly designated roles.
xiaophil
March 04, 2010, 12:45 AMBodawei,
Yes, 参加 is an interesting word as it is used in different ways than in English sometimes. My students always talk of "participating" in a party. Participating in a party? Sounds a bit of a stuffy party to me, but then again, Chinese parties are usually highly organized with people in clearly designated roles.
xiaophil
March 04, 2010, 12:47 AMBodawei,
Yes, 参加 is an interesting word as it is used in different ways than in English sometimes. My students always talk of "participating" in a party. Participating in a party? Sounds a bit of a stuffy party to me, but then again, Chinese parties are usually highly organized with people in clearly designated roles.
xiaophil
March 04, 2010, 12:50 AMBodawei,
I tried posting the following above, but for some reason it wouldn't apply.
Yes, 参加 is an interesting word as it is used in different ways than in English sometimes. My students always talk of "participating" in a party. Participating in a party? Sounds a bit of a stuffy party to me, but then again, Chinese parties are usually highly organized with people in clearly designated roles.
bodawei
Yes, there is a sense of 'organizing', as you say. I remember someone told me once that after school they were told that they would do Education at university. I believe that it was her school, or teacher, that made this decision, not even her parents. This was back in the days when students had little or no choice of what they would do in life. (I remember this story when I hear my students talking about their subject 'electives', and how they are not sure what they will do after graduating - different story now.) She used the verb 参加 in that case.
bodawei
I just remembered that she told me that 参加 translated as 'an invitation where there is no choice' - but she noted that the word 参加 is not used that way any more.
bodawei
March 04, 2010, 04:27 AMYes, there is a sense of 'organizing', as you say. I remember someone told me once that after school they were told that they would do Education at university. I believe that it was her school, or teacher, that made this decision, not even her parents. This was back in the days when students had little or no choice of what they would do in life. (I remember this story when I hear my students talking about their subject 'electives', and how they are not sure what they will do after graduating - different story now.) She used the verb 参加 in that case.
xiaophil
March 04, 2010, 12:19 AMZhen,
I was a little surprised that you had trouble with 到中午的时候. Not surprised as in "I think you should know better," but surprised as in I didn't think that would be a part someone would have a problem with. Yes, I mean something like, "When noon came around." I wonder if it is wrong, or just if it is just a way of saying things you aren't familiar with?
zhenlijiang
March 01, 2010, 11:08 AMI guess you want responses from people who actually know what they're talking about, but I figure this Group isn't off-limits to anybody, and no harm in my attempting to address this question. I have the same problem anyway.
OK you begin by establishing that this is something that has happened in the past and also because it's a short enough story, it seems to me that all the 了's after the first one are not necessary. So yeah I can see you used 了 liberally.
The first one is correct and necessary I think.
The second part of your opening sentence I feel like saying 那时还有另外两个人在参加 or maybe start as a new sentence and say 除了我意外，还有两个新雇员在参加。 To me the 了 you have here seems most not to belong.
In the next sentence, are you saying "When it was time for lunch ..."? I don't think what you wrote is wrong.
The following two I think are usually omitted (because we all know this is an account of a past event). I don't think if you kept them you could be called grammatically wrong, even though it sounds much more natural to drop them ...
Regarding the last two, again I think it's expected that you'd drop them? But just for the sake of varying the pattern perhaps we would opt to keep the second from last one--oops, so I thought until I actually tried it in the paragraph. Then it seemed strange so I dropped it again.
So how does this look:
有一天我在一所英文培训学校参加了新雇员培训。 除了我意外，还有两个人（两个新雇员）在参加。中午时间到了。我们的教员说那里周围有好多饭店。我说“不好意思，我吃素，这里周围有合适素食者的饭店？”然后另外一个“新雇员”同时说“其实，我也吃素”，然后最后的新雇员同时说“你们不会相信我，但是我也吃素”。其中三个新 雇员之内，百分之百是素食者！
* This is the biggest headache for me in the whole paragraph. What did you say precisely--"When lunchtime rolled around ..." or "When it was near time for lunch ..." or "Lunch hour came up"? I ended up saying simply "Lunch hour came up", only because I found it least complicated and non-problematic. And of course I could, like you did, have used …… 的时后.
And if you do decide to go this way this 了 isn't optional is it.
That's my two cents, hoping others come along ...