Everyday expressions that Native Speakers Seldom use

Thank you suansuanru. That was helpful.

hi.

I think 过奖sounds a little old fashioned,but yes we still use it.And it would be perfect for a foreigner to do so. It can indicate that your chinese is really awesome!!

It is common now to accept a compliment,and i think the way comes from Western culture. I learned it in my English class.

The old generation may say"一般"or“没有没有” to a compliment.

To say"thanks"or"一般"are all suitble to the compliment from Chinese people.

So if 哪里哪里makes you sound like a foreigner, what should we use to deflect a compliment? Does 过奖sound OK or does it sound to old fashioned? Nowadays I hear some Chinese people say 谢谢 when I give them a compliment. Is it common now to just accept a compliment? Or were they saying that because I gave the compliment and I'm a foreigner (and they were following Western culture)? Does the older generation feel they are too proud if they accept a compliment?

Sometimes if people compliment my Chinese I just say: 还差得远 háichādeyuǎn In otherwords, I still have a lot to learn.

Would a native Chinese speaker please comment on all of these options?

ok.I think it is an old way to express"you flattered me" from ancient times.

Just because they say it on my Cantonese instruction cd in Cantonese, and that was the first time I ever heard it- no other reason.

hi,why do you think that 过奖 might be a Cantonese phrase?

This is a really interesting thread, I guess I will think a bit more carefully about the nuances of 马马虎虎， 哪里哪里 and 还可以 from now on. I have a phrase I quite like to use to express 哪儿的话 (to mean 'you flatter me') which is 过奖，过奖. It might be a translation of a Cantonese phrase- I would be interested to hear people's opinions about it!

Hahah! Yeah that would explain the different versions of the story floating around out there....

Average as in luke warm or not very enthusiastic. Not as in "common". But Bababardwan is right, if you say, "wow, this is not so bad!", then it indicates surprise at how good the dish turned out, given you thought it was going to be bad.

Basically, it's best to always say you like it, or don't say at all if you don't :-)

>ever=曾经

hehehe "you very right!"

>the chances of getting agreement from a Chinese native is about 1 in 1.3 billion

hehehe really

chinese people like to eat with salt,my father once told me that the most important thing in cooking(he meant chinese food)is the skill(i dont know how to say,but i mean the amount of salt ) of adding salt in a dish. A dish can be ruined without enough salt or over-amount salt.

And i think it is very common for the chinese to have dinner for a long time,they can eat from lunch time,and talk while eating till dinner time!

用日文说“哪儿的话”是不是“こちらこそ”？

the best situation of using还可以

>我这道菜又失败了。

>我觉得还可以啊，别难过。（actually,failed again）

>我的这条裙子很丑吧？

>其实还可以，不是很丑。（actually,a little 丑）

and yeah you are right,we all like 好吃的菜。hehe

average response?wow,i thought we cannot use "not so bad"to your friends in English! so i never dare to say it.hehe.

Hi orangina

Yeah, I feel the artist story is too palusible to believe, hehe.

hmmmm. This artist story is a bit 马马虎虎。。。。

But I would believe it is a transliteration from Manchu or something else (as Changye proposes) and then Chinese people said "This will not due! We need a story to go behind this saying!"

"Some bring their own food,"

I would be /so/ offended if someone did this to me! I'd rather they at least try to eat my 马马虎虎 food than assumed it would be awful! Or maybe they heard about your 还可以朋友 and decided it might be best to avoid the same fate... ;-)

Hi Jen,

I think it's simply because every textbook for 老外mentions this 哪里哪里somewhere in chapters 1 or 2. I learned it that way, too, but have seldom heard Chinese actually use it. It's like the Chinese who all use "ever" to mean 曾经, you often hear things like "I ever worked in the banking industry" (instead of I *used to* work in the banking industry: 我曾经..... ). This "曾经=ever" must be in some of the English text books in China.

“哪儿的话” might be more "safe" for us foreign learners to use than “哪里哪里” is when you want to say "you are welcome, you flatter me".

There are a few different etymologies for the Japanese word “马鹿”. The most plausible one seems to be that 马鹿 (baka) is a transliteration of a Sanskrit word that means "ignorance". Interestingly, 马鹿 also has an etymology that is similar to the one you introduced above. Conversely speaking, it's possible that 马虎 is also a transliteration or an imported word from ..... Manchu?

Hah! Why? Neither strikes me as a particularly foolish animal! ;)

Just for the record, “马鹿” (horse + dear) means "a fool" in Japanese.

No but 哪里，哪里 has this story attached to it. A beautiful woman walks into a room and someone says 'Oh my god, you are so beautiful!' The beautiful woman (must be Chinese) hears this and deflects the comment by looking around and saying (rhetorically) 哪里? 哪里?

Do y'all know the story of 马马虎虎? Well of course there are several versions but this is the one I heard:

There was an artist with two sons. His magnum opus, as it were, was a painting he'd made of an animal that was half 马 and half 虎. The boys grew up looking at this painting. One day, the older son saw a 马 and ran away in fear, thinking it was a 虎. His father was disgusted with his son's cowardice. Later, his younger son saw a 虎 and tried to ride it, thinking it was a 马. He was eaten by the 虎.

The father destroyed the painting and vowed never again to create something so ambivalent, so 马马虎虎.

I'm not sure I completely get the logic behind the story...something about mixing two things that should not go together, or not being clear in one's intentions?

I dunno, but that's the story I heard.

A quick internet search also reveals that some believe 马马虎虎 is of Manchu origin...http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?/topic/33117-manchu-vocabulary-loan-words-in-mandarin-chinese/

Anyone have any other explanations?

It is a vexed question how to entertain Chinese people in your home. I think that Chinese food (which I normally cook just for ourselves) is definitely OUT. [That is what brought out the 还可以 four years ago, actually three years, seven months and about 15 days ago.] I actually cook a number of standard dishes very well (taught by natives) but the chances of getting agreement from a Chinese native is about 1 in 1.3 billion. So we do Western dishes which our guests seem very happy about, but they keep on adding salt, five or six times. :) They also take a long time to eat, always a bad sign. Some bring their own food, regardless of what we have planned. The key I think is alcohol - if there is enough to drink the evening is usually a success, and they can't remember the food the next day.

HI bodawei

I also think it depends on the situation and relationship between you and the host. I've just asked one of my Chinese friends about this issue, and he told me that he doesn't say “还可以” to his host. That said, I guess he would probably say “还可以” to me, for example, when I treat him to homemade curry and rice at my home. In any case, we'd better be careful about the usage of “还可以” especially when you want to praise (or compliment) someone.

I think that foreigners cannot say 还可以 but a Chinese friend said 还可以 about my cooking one night four years ago and I still feel hurt. ;-)

Hi suansuanru

> if you are invited to have dinner at someone's house, In,chinese, we can say"还可以"

Really? I don't have the heart to say “还可以” to the host. Why not just say “好吃” instead of using such a "a bit risky" phrase? hehe

yeah ,but "not bad" can be said in an understated way that means you really like something. I have particularly heard Scots say this eg after a first swig of a beer..put it down and give a protracted...not baad ...in a very approving satisfied way,hehe

hehe,excellent orangina ..jiushi :)

oh mate,don't discourage 'em from that...I need all the encouragement I can get :)

thanks for mentioning this one mate. Yeah,this is a classic example of what I'm talking about. I loved this phrase when I first learnt it for a few reasons....the reduplication,the way it rolls off the tongue,easy to remember,the leap in meaning from horse horse tiger tiger to render so-so,but above all because it makes my youngest kid laugh and she likes to say it. Despite it's use mainly by laowai, I won't be ditching it in a hurry.At least natives know what it means and it usually gets a laugh.

Why does the Laowei like to say 马马虎虎 so much? Well that's easy it gets taught in an early lesson and it sticks because it is "soooo not english"!

Imagine a conversation with a proper london gentleman who comes up and says:

"Good morning to you, how are you today?"

you look him straight in the eye smile and say:

"horse horse tiger tiger"

He would look at you assume you are barking mad and run away as quickly as he could! That thought makes it stick in your head.........

Of course the gent would probably approach and say “Morning，you all right?" anyway :-)

If you said "not so bad" to someone's dish in english, it's a very average response, and basically means "I didn't like it".

Maybe I'm over-polite, but if someone has made me food, I always try to be appreciative. Even if it's a disaster, it's good to find something nice about it, even if it's only the presentation, or the effort they've made in making it. It's better to tell a "white lie" than to risk offending your host, Unless you're REALLY good friends, in which case you can be honest :-)

hi.

in my opinion,马马虎虎means "so-so",it is not a postive word just as changye said."还可以"is better than 马马虎虎to express some positive meaning when you want to show humility at the same time.

two meanings for 马马虎虎

1.so so

I have a question,if you are invited to have dinner at someone's house,can you say"not so bad"when the host asked about the dish? In,chinese, we can say"还可以",but do not ever say"马马虎虎"if you don't want to provoke the chinese host.

the positive meaning varies from low-high:

马马虎虎-一般-还可以

2.carelessly

but the second useage is less widely used than that of "马虎"

and i think we really rarely use both "马马虎虎" and "马虎"today. It is widely used to describe the chinese kids do their homework carelessly.

lol you'are so funny

... and the enduring mystery of why horse-horse-tiger-tiger means so-so, or sloppy (which meaning I previously did not know.) Everyone loves a mystery!

It does roll off the tongue, doesn't it? I think there is one other reason for 马马虎虎. It is a fun word. I mean, what can be cooler than a word that literally means horse-horse-tiger-tiger?

I think 老外 like to say 哪里哪里 and 马马虎虎 so much for the same reason Seinfeld explains the popularity of salsa vs. ketchup in America. People use more salsa because they like to say "salsa." 哪里哪里 and 马马虎虎 just roll off the tongue...

This is also the reason I like Greek food. I like to say "babaganoush" and "mizithra."

Hi xiaophil

“马虎” only means "carelessly, sloppily", and “马马虎虎” has the two meanings I mentioned above. Both 马马虎虎 and 还可以 basically connote "passable", but one of my Chinese friends told me before that 还可以 sounds a little more positive than 马马虎虎. In any case, you should be careful when you use these words for judging/evaluating other people's performance. On the other hand, the words are very useful when you want to show humility.

Maybe we are looking at another regional difference thing? I am inclined to take a teacher's word over the dictionary (one of my teachers did not like a dictionary in the classroom!) but usage could vary from place to place. Would be nice to hear from a couple of native speakers. Suansuanru where are you?

I was under the impression that 马马虎虎 meant so-so, and 马虎 meant careless. In other words, duplication changes the meaning this time. I think it was a teacher that told me that...

Aah, my dictionaries have both meanings, and both dictionaries I have looked up include the meaning 'not so bad' - so that may be one reason it is not used properly. The dictionaries are misleading, again.

You can use 马虎 - one dictionary has sample sentences: 这孩子聪明倒聪明，就是太马虎。 And 马虎了事 is to get something done in a careless fashion.

One dictionary has a third meaning: 'to palter with something'. I have never heard the expression - looked it up on Yahoo which gives the meaning 马马虎虎! I think this may be an 'English' expression that only exists in Chinese dictionaries. Hee hee.

I looked at what Microsoft Word says:

1. 骗，说模棱两可的话，搪塞过去；玩弄；敷衍了事；马马虎虎地处理。

2. 讨价还价，争论不休。

3. 瞎谈一通。

Maybe it was a word a long time ago, before my time.

Hi bodawei

In fact, “马马虎虎” mainly has two meanings. One is "so so", and the other is "carelessly, sloppily". I think native people properly use the word with proper context and grammatical structure, but I don't have much confidence. FYI, 马马虎虎 can mean "so so", but not "not so bad" in English.

Well Changye, now you have to explain why 'it is actually a little more difficult to use than learners usually might think'! :)

Does it not substitute for 还可以？ Can it not be used as a stand-alone reply where you want to convey the impression of 'just so so'?

There is a simple reason for that. Both “哪里哪里” and “马马虎虎” are very easy for us learners to remember. Unfortunately, “哪里哪里” is a little old-fashioned, and “马马虎虎” is actually a little more difficult to use than learners usually might think.

When Chinese people stop saying that our Chinese is so 很不错 we will stop saying 哪里哪里 and 马马虎虎 so much. :)

i am curious about why laowai likes to say"马马虎虎"so much!!

哪里哪里, good one. That is a rare one to hear, and yes it is a foreigner fave, that and 马马虎虎 (just like chinese are crazy about 'just so-so'). Damn those textbooks for including them!

sure mate,I understand about sounding natural.I would just add two further things.Firstly of course one can overdo it with trying to sound like the locals....esp if using in vogue expressions a lot,you can sound like a try hard.Secondly I think some folks definition of "natural" is quite narrow...."it's a pity" being designated outside of the "natural" range being a good case in point.It's certainly not Shakespearean,hehe.I suppose there is also formal and informal sounding speech too ,hey.

btw..just to be clear...I completely agree with starting them on the most natural high frequency language the way folk actually currently speak the language...I suppose I'm personally just not so dismissive of other stuff [but that can probably wait for learners as I think you're suggesting],hehe

Hey Baba,

I have to disagree. It seems you are quite flexible, which I admire. However, if a Chinese person can really nail down some up-to-date expressions, they can build a repertoire with the native speakers much more easily. Most of my students don't even know how to react to the question "What's new with you?"

The same is with Chinese. I don't want to sound like a textbook. I wan't to sound natural.

Sometimes language learners 'cling' to expressions, I know I do. It would be annoying if your students over-use the expression

..great point mate.I agree.Further to that ,that is why I wouldn't generally discourage such expressions also..better to have a repertoire.

Bodawei,

Haha, you are going to regret saying that. I just added "it's a bummer" to my list of alternatives to "It's a pity." It passes my 'mother' test. If I can picture my mother saying it, it is also okay for my students to say it. "It's a pity you couldn't go to KTV". (Too stuffy sounding - in America that is.) "It's a bummer you couldn't go to KTV." (Natural sounding to me in a casual way, my mother would even say it... bingo!)

I was a bit unclear above. I usually say that "it's a shame" is the most universal expression in the English world. I tend to say "it's too bad", but someone told me that sounds very American.

Anyway, I don't know why I care so much.

As long as you don't substitute 'it's a pity' with 'bummer'. That would be a bummer.

Seriously I don't see it as dated, myself; I don't see it as a faddish expression - it is just part of the broad range of conventional English expressions. What a pity. What a shame. It is difficult to think of any expressions that could be substituted without resorting to slang like 'bummer'.

Sometimes language learners 'cling' to expressions, I know I do. It would be annoying if your students over-use the expression. However, I can think of worse expressions.

Him and Mr. T :-). Seriously, do you find yourself frequently saying 'it's a pity' or 'it's a shame'? I think 'it's a pity' sounds very old fashioned, so I usually discourage it in class, but I don't want to force American English on anyone. Anyway, I'm mostly curious.

George Harrison 'Isn't it a Pity' circa 1971

Isn't it a pity?

Isn't it a shame?

How we break each others' hearts

How we cause each other pain?

How we take each others' love

Without thinking any more

Forgetting to give back

Isn't it a pity?

The ex-Beatle is keeping the expression alive.

"it's a pity" seems fine to me mate but I'm probably the worst person to ask as I hinted at above because a lot of stuff seems normal to me ,and others who are hip or with it or whatever seem to have a narrower frame of reference. I suppose at a guess maybe it's a tad old fashioned sounding,but I couldn't tell you it's trend. Some things you might not hear in a long while but it still seems commonplace to me,if that makes sense.

Baba, got a question that isn't Chinese related. Do you feel the phrase 'it's a pity' is alive and well, fading or pretty much out in Australia? This is the teacher side of me who is curious.

actually it's very interesting to see your comment John,because it reminds me of when I was on EPod more and folk would say..."no one says that in English" quite often and almost invariably I would be thinking "well I've definitely heard it" and don't see anything wrong with it...it often seemed a bit like tunnel vision to me,but I do get what people are on about to a degree. But I suppose some stuff will make you sound old fashioned or from a particular region or educational background,deng deng.

Ah ok, 谢谢你 Connie! I better watch the show again...

1. It's very rude to say "不送" and stay sitting down while the guest left. If the host is old or was ill, it's polite to stand up and say "你慢走，我就不送了。"

2. It's OK to say 慢走 to the driver. But I often say, "谢谢！Xièxie！" or "小心开车！xiǎoxīn kāichē！"

I like the 留步- very classy. I watched an episode of a Chinese tv show the other day (one of the pre-war clouds-looming type ones) and the old man said '不送', and stayed sitting down while the guest left. I wondered if this was polite or a bit abrupt... anyone? It could have been either in the context.

Whenever taxi drivers used to tell me 慢走 when I got out of the cab I would also reply 慢走 to them (especially if I just had a fruitful chinese lesson with them!) but then a Chinese person told me you can't really say it to someone who is driving- but what should I say??? 一路平安？遵守交通规定吧？

yes,totally correct!

留步 is very polite (and also a bit formal), isn't it? The way I understand it it means "no need to see me out (e.g. to accompany me downstairs/to the front door etc)", so the 留步 would refer to the host's steps (take no more steps), is that correct?

请回吧=请留步

please come back,no need to "送我"for such a long distance!

really??

do they really just say the sing word of "见"??

I've never hear of that!

oh! good information! Thanks suansuanru and baomingguang!

I understand 别送了, but what does 请回吧 mean? It sounds like please return (Y'all come back now, y'hea!) but if I say it when I am leaving, what does it mean?

bodawei, I think I will start using 见！I like that!

I've also heard "请留步" is appropriate. It doesn't sound right when translated ("please stay here"), but I've never seen a Chinese person get offended when I said it.

While on this subject, I find it interesting how abbreviated Chinese can become. In the staff room, teachers often just say 见！ as they walk out - not 再见。

“请回吧，别送了”is the answer to 慢走........

bodawei:

you are right! the chinese people say"慢走"more than "再见"when they want to say goodbye to their guests.

What is the answer to 慢走？ 谢谢，再见？What if you are saying good-bye, but you are the one leaving and the other person is staying where they are?

Ha ha. I should also have said that when 再见 is used now (other than for a big farewell) the expression is normally 再见拜拜. :)

Hi bodawei

Local people would definitely say “再见” to you when you leave China and go back to Australia.

我住在东北。在这里，很多人也说咱们。

Changye，那件关于“他／她” 的消息非常有意思。

北方人也说“哪里” 和 “那里”。偶尔，甚至在东北的人也不说“儿话音”。

Just for the record, there was no distinction between 他 (he) and 她 (she) in the past, until about a hundred years ago. The character 他 meant both he and she.

Hi xiaophil

That's right. Context and grammatical structure help you know the meaning.

Changye

Once again, thanks for your insight. I'm curious. I wonder if 那里 had both fourth and third tone pronunciations before the 19th century? Or was it just through context that a person knew the meaning?

Hi xiaophil

I've just noticed your question. Sorry for the late reply.

Probaly southern Chinese people learn "authentic putonghua" mainly through textbooks at school. I don't think the authorities have positive reason to intentionally teach students in southern regions words and phrases used in, for example, 北京土话 (Beijing local dialect).

That said, even southern people have a lot of opportunities to hear and read words used in other dialects such as 北京话 and 东北话 through novels, movies, TV, and Internet. The opposite is also true. A lot of words originated in southern dialects are used in putonghua now.

As for “那里”, this is basically a word originally used in classical Chinese, and it's still mainly used in southern (and also northern) dialects, which generally preserve ancient pronunciations and words in them. FYI, 那 was used in the sense of both 那 and 哪 before the 19th century.

You do hear the r sound as an l in parts of the south, but of course that doesn't mean that people don't say er. The 儿 sound exists. But the r that sounds like an l has struck me in places. Don't know if that helps much.

the 那里 queation is interesting.

Changye

I just thought of a question that perhaps you can answer. The southern regions of China usually have a local language that is distinct from Mandarin. How come when they learn Mandarin, they tend to not like using certain words that are very common in places like Beijing, where the local dialect is more-or-less Mandarin? For example, Northerners like to say 挺好的, while Southerners prefer 蛮好的. It has never made sense that when learning Mandarin, they don't copy the people who are truly native speakers of it.

Another thing, I have heard that Southerners prefer saying 那里 over 那儿 because they have trouble saying 'r' sounds. Was the word 那里 created just to make it easier for Southerners to pronounce, i.e. was 那里 basically invented to aid Southerners in learning Mandarin?

Anyway, I know you like a linguistic challenge, but don't break your back over it if it is too hard or doesn't interest you.

Hi xiaophil

I hear 劳驾 is often used in Beijing, but I don't know if young Beijinger also like using the word. As for “咱们”, I guess we don't have much opportunities to hear it partly because we 老外 are NOT a member of “咱们” after all, hehe.

Cool, thanks for clearing that up!

hi.

Actually we seldom use “久仰”now,which was perhaps commonly used in the ancient times.

幸会can regard as a business chinese word nowadays,if you want to do business with chinese people,it would be great to say "幸会"(but,remember in a standard pinyin otherwise chinese will look at you with a puzzled expression since chinese people seldom use this a little ancient word.

What i mean is that sometimes the foreign people can also change the usage of the chinese word.hehe.

And look here:

“久仰二位英名，今日幸会了！”

It is said quoted the beijing opera(京剧) of 《猎虎记》.

Hi Suansuanru

Was wondering whether people often add 久仰 in conjunction with 幸会？ I wonder what kind of context you would use these expressions in?

bodawei,

of course this is just a measure of prevalence but doesn't tell us whether it is gaining or losing popularity...you may of course just be ahead of your time and we may see a big surge [esp now you've posted it] of "我肚子饿来"

..unfortunately google trends can't confirm this suspicion as it doesn't have enough "search volume" ,but the graph for "死了“ is interesting:

http://www.google.com.au/trends?q=%22%E6%AD%BB%E4%BA%86%22&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0

...a big peak in the middle of 2007...now what were Chinese speaking folk all "死了“ ing in mid 2007 [?flooding in Southern China]. Otherwise there is a slight upward trend perhaps just following population or at least internet usage growth.

Umm.. maybe a regional thing. Yeh, 我饿死了is not on the way out apparently, at least in the written form. And yes, both Chinese and English have multiple ways of expressing common sentiments. I just thought I'd try the new expression I heard. :)

ok mate,so you've heard 我肚子饿来 ,and I'm not sure how serious you're being here,but does that really render "我饿死了“ obsolete? I know in English there are umpteen ways to say the same thing ,all valid in my book. And how does one verify such a thing.Oh hang on..yeah ,lets see what google has for them:

我肚子饿来...46k

"我饿死了“...13 million

爱 、 .*★*..*★ *.* 　　 ★★　　　　　 * ★ .’‘*.　　　 . ` . .

In a class society like this you could say 嘿 to people lower in the social pecking order whether or not you know them. (I am only half serious - but this class business pervades.)

People teach you things that they think you might want to know. (Maybe they hear other foreigners saying it?) Very accommodating.

Here's one I heard yesterday: 我肚子饿来！ (I'm hungry!) No more 我俄死了! for me. :)

Me too! And I learned 很高兴认识你 from a chinese person! It baffles me that we are taught things people don't actually say. If it is not what people say, who came up with it?

Just to be clear: 嘿 is appropriate for strangers?

嘿 (Hey) .. I hear myself saying that more and more. It is interesting because it comes from English, but in English it is very casual, verging on impolite unless used just between friends.

I actually notice Chinese people say 你好 to each other - even older people - and have been surprised. I think they got this from foreigners, as you say, but they seem to enjoy saying it now.

Also, I am giving up 认识你很高兴 as of NOW. Now you mention it, when I say that I get odd looks. Thanks for 幸会.

谢谢你的推荐，我对这种书很感兴趣，想找来看看。

Hi suansuanru

I recently bought an interesting book called 《现代汉语欧化语法现象研究》 (商务印书馆). It seems that modern Mandarin Chinese has been more influenced by European languages, mainly English, than I thought before. Actually, the same holds true for Japanese, my native tongue.

明白了。。给；新标题

My son goes to tae kwon do and the kids say 加油 everyday。

hehe ,thanks mate.Well if its good enough for Jackie Chan then it's good enough for me.加油 ！

Jackie Chan was on TV this morning egging on relief efforts in I think the current earthquake zone with 加油! 加油!

Hi Barbs, well I don't agree with your first one - 加油 is definitely used by native speakers. It is an interesting topic though - particularly how the language changes. There are new words and expressions coming in and old ones being used less frequently, then not at all. And the influence from English/the West can be tracked. Can't think of anything right at the moment - I try to ignore anything not used by native speakers.