measure words

When 碗 is the noun and not a MW it needs to be preceded by the MW 个.

In this example, 大碗 = MW.

Tvan's dictionary apparently says differently re the first point,

http://chinesepod.com/community/conversations/post/9002#comment-178179

but for what it's worth I agree with both of the above Bob.

yeah,that was what made sense to me

In the thread baba refers to is the phrase 一大碗. I think the question is - is 碗 acting as a noun or a measure word there. If it is a noun, where is its measure word - and if it is a measure word, why does it come after the adjective. I am proposing that 大碗 might be acting as a measure word.

Hi Suansuanru

I am the one possibly responsible for confusing 300,000 people using Chinesepod with this original comment. :)

I said that the noun is often dropped so you just say the MW. So 一碗饭 if there is context becomes 一碗. Similarly 两大碗米线 (with enough context) becomes 两大碗。 I was suggesting that in this case the 碗 at the end of the sentence is actually a MW, not a noun. If it was a noun there would be no MW, which we can't have. (This is go_manly's point/question I think.)

I raised this point because I think it is quite common to drop the noun so the sentence ends with a MW. And often the MW at the end is 个。

The harder part of my question is what happens with 空碗? Can 碗 in 空碗be a MW as it is with 一大碗? can you say 一空碗？where 碗 is a MW? Or does it have to be 一个空碗/ 一个空杯子? With context can I say 一空个 in reference to the 一个空碗?

thanks ,that makes sense and I've now got a new mw...堆

no you cannot say 一空个。

Thanks suansuanru; I think I am pretty clear now why not, too. I speak really bad Chinese but it's gradually improving. :)

加油！:)希望能在“中文吧”看到更多你的帖子！

真不巧我忙于自己的学习汉语。。哈哈

可惜 ke3xi1 - 是不是更好词？

”真不巧“已经是很好的词了。

thanks finrret,

We don't think of glass, as in a glass of water or milk etc. as a measure. It's more of a noun, don't you think?

..hmm, I guess. If I heard the word "glass" on it's own I would definitely be thinking of a noun ,and void of context would probably be thinking of the material we call glass,not the drinking vessel. But if it was "a glass" I would be thinking of the vessel. And if it was " a glass of water" I would be thinking..hmm ..yeah I see your point...I know it is being used as a measure word but I think our main emphasis would come down to context..down to the person. Sometimes the type of vessel one is drinking from is important to the person [wine having to be drunk from a wine glass,coffee from a coffee mug,tea from a tea cup] and sometimes I think it is about the volume ...one wants to drink a glass of water [whatever volume that represents..it can vary a bit...but one can always ask for another]. Probably most of the time neither matter too much...someone just wants a drink and a glass is a common thing to have it in.Now a "cup" on the other hand can be quite specific if used in recipes/cooking and in that case is clearly being used as a measure word...again it comes down to context.

Good point. I'm very impressed with how much one depends on context in spoken Chinese. I imagine that our English is, with texting, and reduced concern for formal grammar, etc., is getting closer every day to Chinese.

Would you understand e.g., with0ut further context, a phrase such as yi1 zhang1 bei3?

good suggestion..thanks

Yes young people would like to drop measure words in everyday speech in Beijing,but have you observed that they can never drop the measure word if the amount of the things/people being related is above 3? For example, they will say 一老头、俩老头、仨老头,but never四老头、五老头. And the measure word of 碗 cannot be dropped. And I think That is totally Beijing hua,not Mandarin.