Learning slump

Yeah, I've got a friend from HK and I find myself correcting her Mandarin from time to time. She's a great asset for learning Cantonese, however!

Actually, I am 1/4 Chinese.

In Shanghai, and in Hangzhou, some people did automatically speak English to me, before I said a word, but everywhere else in China I can't really remember a time when they did, because it was so rare beyond a "hello". Even those in Shanghai and Hangzhou that tried to first speak in English were happy, or almost relieved, that I could speak Mandarin.

I remember one girl that was working at Starbucks in Shanghai and she was like, "Hello? 你好？” like she didn't know which one to say, and just gave me both to let me pick.

LOL I guess I was lucky I got used to such BAD Mandarin in Wenzhou, that Guangdong and Fujian just seemed like CCTV news broadcasters compared to them. I really regarded Guangdong Mandarin as really clear and 好聽。Hong Kong and Macau, however. . . their Mandarin is a different story.

bweedin, you don't happen to look somewhat Asian, do you? My experience is that most people in customer facing roles ( street vendors, beggars, hotel receptionists, ...) take one look at me, and will assume they need to speak English to me. Others try to avoid interacting with me, I presume on the assumption that communication will be difficult. It always seems to take a little effort on my part to get past this stage of interaction with a new person.

Note to self: Don't go to Wenzhou. It must be impossible to understand a word! 天不怕，地不怕，只怕广东人说普通话.

hmm, maybe I didn't express myself correctly. I just meant that they automatically speak Mandarin to you, in the same way in the U.S. people automatically speak English to everyone. I didn't mean it in a hostile kind of a way. and by "not much of a competition" I did mean no competition. In my previous post, I basically said that outside of Shanghai, no one in China really speaks English.

The situation in Foshan is the same in Wenzhou, where the majority of my time was spent. At the gym all the guys would speak Mandarin to me, and turn around and speak Wenzhouhua to each other.

and my own experience in Jiangmen, not too far from you, was that when I tried to speak Cantonese, they would generally be ok with it, but as soon as I uttered one word of Mandarin (which I often did) they immediately switched to Mandarin. I guess if a foreigner can speak Chinese in the first places, they are way more used to them speaking Mandarin. That, and my Mandarin is way better than my Cantonese.

I liked Guandong though. Their Mandarin is more clear than that of Wenzhouren. I was surprised.

This is one of the reasons why speaking of "China" as a monolithic entity breeds misunderstandings. People talk about what it's like to be in China and how to understand China and I'm sitting here in Foshan thinking "Is this not China, then? Over here, it's nothing like what you're describing."

In Foshan, there's certainly no competition, since nobody speaks more English than "Hello!". There's certainly no "you're-in-China-so-you'd-better-speak-Mandarin" attitude, especially since, y'know, Mandarin isn't the main language here. Mostly, the attitude seems to be "Omigod, a foreigner!" They're very relieved when it turns out I can speak Mandarin, but speaking Mandarin in Foshan is like speaking English in Germany. They'll speak it with you, but in the next moment, turn around and speak Cantonese with the next dude, leaving you out of the conversation.

haha I don't remember it even being much of a contest. They're attitude seemed more like, you're-in-China-so-you'd-better-speak-Mandarin sort of thing.

bweedin, I agree that English has not become a universal second language for China. During my recent stay in Beijing, I almost always won the, shall we speak English, or shall we speak Chinese contest, even though my Chinese isn't *that* good. I can converse, if somewhat awkwardly, This seemed to be enough to get into the comfort zone of, "ok, we'll speak Chinese." However, as a result, I can't really evaluate the English ability of those I interacted with.

I have to say, regarding what you said, "seems like everyone speaks English [in China.]"

Based on my personal experience:

In Shanghai, a few people speak some English at main tourist attractions and at Starbucks

In Beijing, even fewer, although I don't even remember the staff at the front desk of the hotel being able to speak English.

if you can say the numbers and say "没有" you're Chinese is already miles ahead of most Chinese's English.

As you say, the meaning of “汉语” in everyday conversation is virtually "Mandarin", while the word is usually used in the broad sense in Chinese linguistics. I have several books such as 《现代汉语语言学史》，《汉语声调论》，《汉语方言概要》, and all of them refer to Chinese dialects. The book 《汉语正音教程》 naturally doesn't mention any dialect because “正音” indicates "standard pronunciations", just like a book on "Queen's English" doesn't necessarily mention American English.

The thing is, "汉语" is often used to denote Mandarin, too. I have a book called "汉语正音教程" and I can assure you it doesn't mention any dialect except Mandarin. And "汉语拼音" has never been used as a name for the Cantonese pinyin system, but only denotes Mandarin pinyin.

It's the same with "中文", actually. People tell me it means the written language, but still the most common thing I hear when I say something in Mandarin is "哇，你会说中文!" and nobody has ever asked me "你看得懂中文吗?", but rather "你看得懂汉字吗?". Also a few times "你看得懂中文字吗?", where they feel they need to specify they mean the writing as opposed to the spoken 中文.

My conclusion is that all of these terms seem horribly blurred and I don't feel I can be confident that saying "汉语" will be interpreted as "The chinese languages" rather than "Mandarin", just as in English you can't really say "Chinese" when talking about Cantonese.

Hi simon

When you refer to the Chinese language/dialects, including both spoken and written ones, the most appropriate word should be “汉语”, which is also academically used in Chinese linguistics. There are a lot of books titled 《汉语的历史和演变》 or something like that, but I've never seen a book titled, for example, 《中文历史》. The term 《汉语》 of course doesn't include minority languages used in China, such as Korean, Mongolian and Tibetan.

Hi tavan

Written Cantonese is more or less a kind of written Mandarin, which is not difficult to read even for us foreign learners of Mandarin, and it doesn't necessarily represent "real" Cantonese, which is basically a colloquial language.

Yes, the Académie Française. It's hilarious. It's like having a committee for deciding the weather.

That would have been a much more poignant analogy if not for those pesky Chinese.

I believe the French have a committee for deciding what new words are allowed to enter the French language, and this committee tries its best to stamp out any English influence. So, evidently, the incitement of provincialism doesn't require a federal government.

Well, to be fair, the French doesn't have to deal with their own government trying to stomp out their language.

As for 中文 and Cantonese, "中文" refers to Standard Written Chinese (that is, 普通话 written down). As such, written Cantonese probably doesn't count.

Which begs the question "Is there any way to refer to 'the Chinese languages', to include all of the spoken and written languages in China, in Mandarin?" Maybe one should use whatever "Sino-Tibetan languages" is in Mandarin.

Hi Changye, thanks for a subtle and interesting distinction. Like Simonpeterson, I have had several encounters with some pretty touchy Cantonese speakers re: culture and language. They're kind of like the French in that regard.

Still, using the "written language" definition of 中文, as has been discussed here extensively, Cantonese does have its own written variant of Chinese.

Hi tvan and simon

The word “中文” generally connotes "written language", while “方言” are basically spoken languages. So the phrase “中文方言” sounds a little strange, perhaps.

She had a soft spot for me - I'm still taking the hair out of my teeth

However, many Cantonese speakers would take strong exception from the "汉语方言" label. And most foreign students of Cantonese would be outraged (they tend to get really tetchy when it comes to classifying 粤语 as a dialect and not a language).

changye, 汉语不是中文吗？I guess it comes down to what you define "Chinese/中文" as: Is it only Mandarin, or Mandarin and does it include all of its attendant dialects.

Hi tvan

You can say “汉语方言”, but generally not “中文方言”.

广东话不是中文吗？

"On our way home"

...天啊！我明白为什么你叫队长霹雳。

I agree...stating a fact, and moreover I took it as often showing empathy。。同理心

Chinese is difficult for some chinese too. The other day I was having a very pleasant one-way conversation in chinese with a chappie at the local take-away, and he couldn't understand a word I said. I thought it very strange, so I had to ask him if he understood any putonghua. He insisted that he did, but I didn't quite believe him. For instance, when I asked if the chinese often ate dog, a very curious expression arose on his face. I repeated 'gou' several times in a loud voice which anybody could understand, and finally it dawned on him - he said "gao, not gou". I told him he was wrong, but it made no difference; he insisted that 'dog' in mandarin is gao. Anyway, a nice young lady entered the establishment just at the critical moment, and told me that he was speaking Cantonese. On our way home she said that he would not admit that he understood little mandarin because that would mean losing face to a foreign devil. By the way, it's not true what they say about chinese women.

I disagree with most people here. I think that when Chinese say, "Chinese is very difficult for foreigners," they are not being rude; they are just stating a fact. For English speakers, Chinese is hard: it uses tones, requires deep cultural knowledge, and possesses arguably the most culturally and technically complicated writing system in the world. In fact, the US State Department considers Arabic, Chinese, Korean, and Japanese the most difficult languages for an English speaker to learn. (http://web.archive.org/web/20071014005901/http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/november/learningExpectations.html)

So, next time somebody tells you that Chinese is really difficult for foreigners, maybe you ought to consider the possibility that they are right and say, "Thank you." (Unless you're Japanese.)

I guess I wouldn't say they are not too happy about it...but they think it is useless to learn...I will fire up the Cantonese video tom. when I get time.

You should come over to Foshan, bro. People are so excited to find I can speak Mandarin and then proceed to ask me if I know 白话. I've heard that Kongers aren't too happy about white folks speaking Cantonese, but I've met no such sentiment here.

bodawei,

Our office has Cantonese & Mandarin speakers. If I try to practice some Mandarin, they will never leave me alone until they feel I have the tone exactly right.

The Cantonese speakers could care less.

Mate, I agree 100%. In Australia Chinese shopkeepers are almost always ready for a chat and for teaching you some Chinese. I regularly made a nuisance of myself around Sydney holding up the wheels of commerce in this respect. Same in my experience in China, as I think I indicated in other posts. The adverse responses are rare to say the least. Look I'm not sure that it has anything to do with being Chinese. There are people who think that Chinese is impossibly difficult (for whatever reason) but for the most part I am not offended by these views. I was shocked a few times when first getting seriously into learning Chinese. One person, who became a good friend, on our first meeting told me that compared to English, Chinese is 'rich and abundant' - and then she looked genuinely surprised when I countered with 'I think that English is also rich and abundant'. I am also now generally not upset by people who are enthralled by their own culture - its fascinating for an Australian who struggles to even define their own culture.

Hi Chanelle - If you knew me better you would know that I 'only' shop in the markets, the wetter the better. :) Well, I do go to 家乐福 but I avoid it if I can. But actually my experience with the staff there is similar to the markets - everyone just shows no surprise that you speak Chinese. Actually I am not sure I know what you mean by 'negative reactions' (I think I missed the stamp shop story.) Actually I can think of one negative reaction when an old lady screamed 窝头 wōtòu at me [I was saying wōtóu]. Screamed, like it was the most important thing in her life that I learn to speak properly. In my city the dialect has almost every word as fourth tone (or no tone.) She was very animated and wanted to correct my awful tones! I can't come at wōtòu, but I compromise and do use no tone now - wōtou. (And watch carefully for reactions.)

Yes, on average for me the most negative experiences I had were in local markets and places where foreigners rarely come. Most people are vendors with I think not so much education and are not used to interacting with laowei. Still these markets are my favorite and you get a look of real China and with many people I have a good relationship.

When people come from the countryside to sell their "antique", often experienced very negative reactions.

Then again, maybe if I would mix in different circles or go to different places I would have the same experiences as you :-)

呵呵，good point.

Superiority- and inferiority- are different moods of the same complex, no? The same insecurity.

well I don't spy any arguments forthcoming anytime soon, so maybe I'm destined for the slow path,hehe. Actually one of the reasons that I expressed a little surprise above is that in my own limited experience which is mostly contained to speaking with Chinese here in Australia is that the reaction is almost always just the opposite. I am often blown away by the friendliness shown to a complete stranger like myself. Take yesterday for example. I was strolling past a Chinese hairdresser and stopped to check out the opening/closing hours. Out came 阿姨 to see if I wanted a cut then and there. When I told them that I didn't have time at the moment [and they discovered I could speak some Chinese in the process] there was a flurry of excitement and others came out to speak to me and they got me to sit down and wanted to have a good chat. I was given one of their private mobile phone numbers and told that if I ever go to China they have a friend in Beijing who can show me around. They seemed very genuine and I was really struck by how warm and friendly they were. While they could speak English they were patient with continuing to chat in Chinese. I was stoked to say the least.

I find this incredibly interesting - not least because way back in 1973 I decided to learn German for the expressed purpose of reading, not speaking! (Wanted to read that wonderful German literature.) Naturally this fitted the language teaching of the time. I did a couple of semesters. But your comments about Chinese in this respect - thanks for that. I will make renewed efforts in my reading. Comics of course, hee hee.

Hi barbs

Just my two cents worth - I would like RJ characterise this (usually) as a superiority complex rather than a matter of inferiority. But as I just said in a longish post replying to Chanelle I think that there is a rich variety of responses to foreigners learning Chinese. Very hard to generalise these days. We have also spoken elsewhere about how most Chinese learn English for purposes other than pleasure! Not surprising when you have been forced into English classes for as long as you can remember. One reason why I love the work of Ouyang Yu (I have made several posts about him over the past year or two here) - a Chinese writer who loves learning English! Actually if you ever come across someone who is scornful of your Chinese learning efforts I would say that is a good language learning opportunity. Get into an argument about it! Lay on the drinks! Fighting and drinking!

Hi Chanelle - I can empathise with everything you have said here, thanks for posting. Just one difference (and I wonder if I understood you correctly) - for me it is much more likely to be educated Chinese who give me grief about the language. Make comments about how difficult the language is, sometimes make me feel bad (intentionally or unintentionally - it is difficult to establish motive). People with less education/ country people - this is where I feel much more comfortable! Curiously, many Chinese (who I perhaps unconsciously put in the 'less-educated' category, usually a judgement formed by the job they are doing or the context I find them in) are entirely unsurprised that you can speak their language.

It is only with educated Chinese that I have occasionally been drawn into a kind of battle (because they have made some cutting comment about my Chinese) where I sometimes say defensively (& perhaps a bit rudely) .. 'so.. how long have you been learning English?' If they tell the truth most these days have been learning formally since primary school days, right through to the first two years of university and sometimes beyond that.

But finally I have to say that there is a rich variety of responses from Chinese people on the subject of foreigners learning/speaking Chinese - it is indeed very hard to generalise these days. Context is also important - I think that people are more accepting in general in the South West (confounding your comment about people 'in the countryside'), and also I think that it changes as your level of Chinese changes.

Hi eupnea63355

There are a lot of people in this world who (must ?) learn English without having opportunities to speak in English, just like me, who enjoy reading English newspapers and magazines on the Internet every day in order to get the latest news of interest to me. I started learning German last year, and my goal is to be able to READ German, but not to speak German, as I know I will have no chance to speak in the fascinating language for the rest of my life. Actually, I've already got a copy of The Metamorphosis (Kafka).......... for the future, hehe.

I'm now in China, but in my case, time for reading Chinese is MUCH LONGER than that for speaking Chinese, and the former is much more interesting to me than the latter. Personally I think the essence of Chinese lies in written language, but not in spoken one, and Chinese is just worth learning solely for the purpose of reading. Besides classical Chinese literature, you can find tons of news stories on Internet (China) about "beyond-your-imagination" accidents/affairs happening everyday in modern China, which I think is a good enough reason to keep learning Chinese.

chanelle,

Thanks for sharing these insights.

Either way, needless to say this is a great motivation :-)

...I tell you what, I love your attitude. You're a champ. Jiayou !

no need to apologise mate. They were all fair comments and it's only through discourse that our meanings become more clear. I may have come off the wrong way as I was dashing off to prepare din din so posted in a bit of a hurry. Ah, I personally wouldn't use "rocked up" in that way. It just means "rolled up"...you know, "turned up" or "showed up". 'course I don't mind you learning Australian [at least we're on a non lesson subthread , hee hee]

sorry mate if my response "rocked up" a little testy. hehe. Did I say that right? I hope you dont mind me learning Australian.

I have experienced quite often negative reactions to my Chinese ability or understanding of their habits / customs / culture etc. It seems that if you come to close or know too much "some" do not like that. But I think it is all based on fear. I while ago I wrote about my experiences in the stamp shop :-)

Especially people from the countryside or not so well educated people tend to display this behaviour. I do not want to generalize but after 2 to 3 years in China I can see some differences.

So I first think, can I blame them for that? My response to people laughing at me or publicly making fun of me is the following: I will tell them, why do you laugh at my Chinese? Or why are you making fun of me? Next I ask them the question, "How many languages do you speak"? They laugh, because they do not know what to say. Then I will smile back and will tell them Chinese is not my second language but my Nth and will sum up what languages I speak and that I put a lot of time and energy in doing so. Most of the time that does the trick and you will put this person back in his place. But sometimes it does get to me and makes me feel bad. But then I think about all the lovely people who made me want to learn Chinese and feel sorry for these people!

A recent example: I asked my teacher at uni a question (note: this is the gaoji class) which was difficult to answer and she replied : when your Chinese is better you will understand! Now that really pissed me off. It is her lack of capability / knowledge to explain this question to me and she will make it look like it is me who is "too stupid" to learn their oh so difficult language! (still makes me mad)

If you know too much or go beyond the things they had planned that is a "no no" for many. In Western countries this is perceived as a positive thing, in China one needs to sit back and listen haha! Luckily there are a few teaching gems out there, but they are rare!

Either way, needless to say this is a great motivation :-)

RJ,

I believe he is stating an opinion, not going on record in the NY Times with a political statement that should require dates and references

...yeah, I realised this and wasn't asking for dates and references. I may have worded it badly but what I mostly had in mind was that I've been on these boards for nearly 2 years now and this is just the sort of topic we love discussing and so I'm surprised I haven't struck it here before.

they are proud of how hard it is to outsiders,

...ok, well I have encountered that discussed before....but that is not inferiority complex and is understandable.

My impression. No proof.

...yes, well I think it would be a hard thing to prove and I'm interested in impressions also, so thanks for giving your impressions mate.

Tal lives in China and his experience should count for something

...of course it does. I never suggested otherwise. I'm very interested in tals impressions. He'd know a lot better than I and that's why I appreciate such posts.

Chinese never want to speak Chinese with foreigners for example.

...yes, well of course I have seen that discussed. But I never read inferiority complex or scorn into that. Maybe that was mentioned but I missed it or misinterpreted it.

I am not of course suggesting that all Chinese have this trait.

...yeah, I realised that

It's a subjective view of my own

..ok, well thanks for bringing it up and for your reply. Still, you are living there so there must be some basis for your observations, so I'd love to hear now from others whether others have encountered this...at least to try and guage how widespread or otherwise it might be.

baba,

I believe he is stating an opinion, not going on record in the NY Times with a political statement that should require dates and references. Im not sure that its an inferiority complex but I have noticed this before also. And no I dont have any references either but I have seen it enough times to sense a pattern. I always thought it was more like a superiority complex. They love their language, they are proud of how hard it is to outsiders, outsiders are not supposed to speak Chinese, and it makes them members of the exclusive club of being Chinese and you are not. Sure they love to praise foreigners who like monkeys can say "ni hao" but if you are really serious about learning Chinese, you will encounter some resistance. No I dont know what percentage of the population feels this way, but I have seen evidence of it. My impression. No proof. Tal lives in China and his experience should count for something. And yes this has been mentioned here before. It has been discussed here as part of the issue that Chinese never want to speak Chinese with foreigners for example.

It's a subjective view of my own, something not often expressed openly perhaps. I am not of course suggesting that all Chinese have this trait.

Many of them also have a kind of inferiority complex about their language and culture, and are secretly scornful of foreigners trying to learn it for pleasure.

...really? why haven't I heard this before? I'd like to know more about this. How did you find this out tal? How many others here were aware of this?

Hi eupnea

if studying Chinese as a hobby gives you pleasure, then that's reason enough not to quit! A man needs a hobby right, and I always tell my own students (young Chinese people who have to learn English, not all of them willingly) that studying language is good for the brain and keeps you young.

Don't be discouraged or offended if real Chinese people laugh at your efforts, this is very common behavior for Chinese people. It's (usually) not meant to be hurtful or rude, they just have a totally different concept of manners and politeness to westerners. Many of them also have a kind of inferiority complex about their language and culture, and are secretly scornful of foreigners trying to learn it for pleasure.

Oh and the idea that everyone in China speaks English is quite wrong actually. Certainly most young people have to learn it in school and university and some will even be eager to practice whenever they catch sight of a foreigner, (usually just by shouting 'hello' and 'pleased to meet you' at you and laughing). But outside of Beijing/Shanghai there's just no way you can get by using English all the time. If you took a holiday in China you'd find plenty of opportunities to practice with real people and I think you'd get a lot of enjoyment out of it.

And, (and this is the great thing,) if you get out and about in China you will meet lots of lovely Chinese people who will be delighted to speak Chinese with you, who will be so happy that you want to learn! Don't judge all Chinese people by the ones who choose to leave China and live abroad!

Wow, I'm really flattered, please pass on my thanks to everyone Sarah! I've been away for a few days and won't be back for a week, but will definitely check it out! Thanks again!

Mine aren't valuable or contributions, but yes it is sort of ironic, to have inaccessible comments here. Thank you for the reply. It's good to be informed that you guys are aware of this.

Hi Zhenlijiang - I am chasing up the missing comments with the tech guys. I think Catherine is on the case, too.

Ironically, the main reason we responded to this thread on the blog is because it seemed to be a valuable conversation for lots of users and we wanted to draw attention to the issue. We really need all those lost contributions to be accessible, therefore!

Hi Sarah, it's sweet of CPod to respond to XiaoLiang's post in such a manner. Since it's getting all this attention now, could those comments of ours that don't show anymore be displayed again? They haven't gone, they're there--two subthreads above, starting with my comment July 19--because it does say "see 36 older replies".

Ok, thanks for letting me know.

suxiaoya - I just tried it a couple of minutes ago, using the link provided in the newsletter. I also got a warning saying a file is infected. Whatever the problem is it is still there.

thanks suxiaoya, it's not doing it anymore. I can never fathom these virus scanners but I'm not brave enough to ignore them either

I have checked and can't find a problem.

The URL is:

http://blog.chinesepod.com/2010/08/02/great-wall-of-chinese-study/

I just clicked on your link "the latest post" and it was blocked by my virus scanner saying it's infected. Could you please check and advise.

Heh! It is in my plan, but only for the month prior to travelling to China. I'm not made of money, unfortunately.

That's cool, maybe I should start a new group, only thing is... I can't get the name to work. Flashcards with Tal? Just doesn't have the right ring to it!

btw tal,

it seems cobocards is free for one day (aug 3rd). This also works for iphone and itouch.

Yeah, that sucks, but if you have an Android phone, for a couple of euros you can install Cobocards , then open a free account on their webpage. Do a search for Chinese Vocabulary and you should come across a set of cards I'm putting together based on Intermediate Vocab. I'm trying to add new cards every day, you can sync with the site for updates from your phone. It'd be cool if others joined in, made sets of their own and shared them.

Come back, previous comments!

xiao liang

小玻，该睡觉了 = http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Spot-Dog-Time-bed-Simplified-Chinese-Book-NEW-/330452759004?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Fiction&hash=item4cf084f1dc#ht_500wt_928

对不起，不能做连。。。

Interesting some of you can make links, but I can't I don't see any of the tools anymore.

Well the italics have disappeared now!

Previous comments still missing though.

Seems strangely coincident with the website changes of 21st July. :-)

Something very odd going on. Apart from the italics, your and my previous comments seem to have disappeared ... ah well

hehe, yeah me too mate. It's so hard to find these things here so I'd be like a kid in a candy store in China.

Alas it comes out again the next time I see and interesting book in Chinese.

All I can say is it's a good Job it live 20 hours flight away from China or I'd be in serious trouble!

I have that 1000 words one too and I haven't found it useful.

I really want to read blocks of text but not too complex.

And yes they do do spot the Dog, (at least in traditional)

Probably. I do remember Calkins saying it was Taiwanese. I don't actually listen to the stories, just read them. I think I have quite a lot of listening material around, but reading something at an easy-ish level that isn't a dialogue is something that is not so well catered for on the interweb.

[Why is everything in italics?]

"I haven't I'll go look at the site"