Chinese Grammar...

Hang in there! I found it started to make sense after the first few months, but the key (at least for me) was to learn it through sheer osmosis. Don't force it when you don't have the vocabulary to back it up. That'll just make things worse! In the mean time, check out this episode of Qing Wen on that very subject! Good luck!

mmoldovan, I appreciate your point of view, but I wouldn't go throwing all my trust into the top 10 books that show up on Amazon under "chinese grammar." My advice to you is to judge the MERITS of the explanation, not the degree that backs the explanation. It certainly doesn't hurt to take in to account other people's perspective on language. And more than that, you will find that many Chinese PhD students (the people who eventually write those books) aren't necessarily that good at Chinese.

Post some of your specific "了" questions here and let's see if some of us can't try to help work it out together. Or, give an example where you think that the answer contradicts another lesson.

Here are a couple of examples from the Gymnastics lesson: 体操比赛开始了。 The gymnastics competition has started. 别急，会议还没开始。 Don't worry, the meeting hasn't started yet. On the discussion page, someone said that the 了 in this situation indicates a completed action, and thus was unnecessary after 开始 in the second sentence. However... I was reviewing the Expansion section of the New York lesson today, and not only do we have a completed action, but it's the same action as the second example above: 会议刚开始，你快进去吧。 The meeting has just started. Hurry and go in. I was totally expecting a 了 after 开始, but there was none. I cried for hours. There seem to be so many situations where it can/should be used, but I can't find any sort of common denominator. Qing Wen has addressed a couple of usages, but I've only seen one or two examples of these in the lessons I've studied. To my novice eyes, it mostly just appears out of nowhere.

sparechange, I remember being in your exact situation not long ago. I found that the best way to do it was to memorize certain phrases (call them "collocations" or "word chunks") that always used 了. Once I knew a bunch of those, it was much easier to identify the usages that required judgment or understanding. So examples of this include: 太 + ADJ + 了 好了 没有了 The more of these patterns I knew, the more I could identify and extrapolate in unfamiliar sentences. With regards to your specific questions, let's look at your three examples: 1. 体操比赛开始了。 2. 别急，会议还没开始。 3. 会议刚开始，你快进去吧。 1. It's a good sign that you noticed that 了 frequently comes after 开始. That observation will serve you well. 2. 了 isn't normally used when 没 negates the verb. (没有了 is a very notable exception.) 3. The key here is 刚. If it wasn't there, it would be fine to say 会议开始了，.... The tricky part is that when 刚 precedes a verb, 了 is often absent, but not always. Don't obsess over this. Make a mental note of it and just keep paying attention what happens whenever 刚 shows up. The key to it all is being a keen observer and being patient with yourself. 加油！

Cool, thanks John!

See, John to the rescue! I will add this. In addition to memorizing patterns, there is a grammatical phenomenon that distinguishes 1 and 2. Other than its function as a simple past tense, 了 is used to indicate a status change. So, in the sentence 体操比赛开始了, you are saying the status of the 比赛 changed from nothing, to having started. In the sentence, 别急，会议还没开始, the sentence indicates that the 会议 hasn't started yet. There has been no change from three hours ago. Or one day ago. Now, number 3. As John said, this is tricky. You could say 会议刚开始了，你快进去吧, and this would be correct (to my ears, at least) as well. I think the difference is slight. 会议刚开始了means "the meeting just started." 会议刚开始 means "the meeting is just starting." (NOTE: 刚开始 is also tricky for another reason. It can also mean "in the beginning," As in, "in the beginning, Chinese was hard, now it's easier." (刚开始中文太难，现在比较容易） In sum, I think the key to understanding 了 is understanding that it indicates a change in the status of the subject and is not a true past tense. It's too easy to try to equate it to English's past tense, but that will confuse you. For example, 他好了, means "he's fine now" or "he's better now." It's not really past tense in English at all, but it uses 了. The reason is that 了 here shows that he had some other status before, but that status has changed to 好. Another example that gives more nuance to this notion is the phrase 不要了 as opposed to just 不要. The latter means, "I don't want (it)", while the former is used to indicate one of two things: (1) I don't want it anymore, maybe I did at some earlier time, but now I don't; or (2) exacerbation: it could mean "I don't want it and that's the end of it stop bugging me." How does (2) fit into our understanding of 了, you ask??? It's nuanced, but it's there. When you say 不要了, you are essentially saying, whatever my status was before, wanting it, not wanting it, not sure, etc., I am definitively (at least now) in a state of not wanting it, i.e., you are wasting your breath, stop asking. [Chinese is not alone, this is the same as in Hawaiian. When you say "ua maika'i 'oia", this technically means "he was good", but it also means "he changed to a status of being good, and continues to be good."]

John, pulosm Great explanation, great advice! This is as good as a QingWen.

Priceless. Thanks for these kinds of explanations. Very helpful. -RJB

Indeed, this is very helpful. Thanks a lot guys!

Thanks, Frank. I appreciate the feedback. I'm glad to hear that it really is possible to absorb these things. I've listened to the Qing Wen episodes about 了, and they've helped a little, but for the most part I'm really struggling to pick up the pattern. There seem to be more exceptions than rules... For example, I see a lot of people posting questions on the lessons asking why one sentence has 了 and another one doesn't; and then the answer given seems to contradict something in the Expansion section of a different lesson. This could drive me to drinking.

Pulosm, you're brilliant. I love your explanations.

Ha ha ha....I don't know about brilliant, but I am glad they are helpful.

John, Thanks for the Hawaiian reference. It's totally clear to me now.

Maika'i no kela! Hau'oli au e lohe i keia. (That's great! I am glad to hear this.) All I'm saying is when Hawaiian gains status as an international language, don't say I didn't warn you and/or try to help you.

I warmly recommend doing an Amazon search for Chinese Grammar, and you will score several hundred hits. The first page lists about the best Chinese Grammar books available on the market. Make your pick and you will find out they contain hands-on practical info on use of Chinses grammar. And they are all authored by pros and experst in the field. Enough of the "I think" type of amateurish opinions of 10-minute a day language buffs. Ken, have you thought of getting a degree in Chinese, just to give some credibility to all your work? Mircea

Does anyone have an opinion on the best Chinese grammar book for a very motivated ellie learner? I have this one on my Amazon wishlist right now (Christmas is coming, and my mother is often very perceptive of my needs! ;-)), based on the reviews: http://tinyurl.com/2ebkrf ...but I'd love to know what fellow poddies think. Apologies if this has been discussed to death elsewhere.

jlswedberg, I got Schaum's outline and think it is very valuable: http://www.amazon.com/Schaums-Outline-Chinese-Grammar-Claudia/dp/0071377646/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-8818924-6447956?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194450991&sr=8-1 mmoldovan, John is the one with the academic merits in the language team and his comments are definately not "amateurish" - neither are the other comments from the CPod team. Besides I consider this situational approach to tackle language as a lot more valuable than a Grammar book. Especially in a language like Chinese. Of course that does not mean that Grammar books do not have their place in language acquisition.

Thanks, Henning. And I agree 100 percent with what you've said--the best way to acquire language is to experience it in the ways you're likely to use it. A grammar book is only a reference tool to help you clarify what's going on.

Just thought of some more things!!! Sorry. :-) The reason that 没有了 works, even though as John points out, 没 + verb usually doesn’t have 了 after it, is the following. 没 has two meanings here (maybe it has more, but just two here). (1) 没 negates the verb 有, to been “there isn’t” or “there aren’t” or “to not have.” In this case, 没有了 works because you use it to show a status change. 没有 would mean “I don’t have” or “there aren’t any”, whereas 没有了 means “I don’t have any anymore” or “there aren’t any anymore.” For instance, someone might ask, “Can I have a piece of candy?” and you might respond “没有了” or “there aren’t any more.” There were some, but now there are not. Note that 没有了 can also be used in the exacerbated sense, too. (2) 没 is used to negate the past. For example, “I don’t go” is 我不去 whereas, “I didn’t go” is 我没去 (one way to think about this to make it make sense to the English mind is “I haven’t gone”). For this use of 没 the particle 了 doesn’t make sense. There has been no status change. No action was taken by you. The fact that you didn’t go yesterday means that your status is the same. As of yesterday, nothing’s changed from the day before, last week, or the year before, even. Thus, whenever you see 没 being used to negate a verb to form a past tense (unlike in example 1, where 没 has no tense, and if anything is present tense, i.e., “I don’t have”), you know that something has NOT happened and, therefore, no change has been made. Hope this was more helpful than confusing. :-)