Chinese versus Australian idioms
bodawei
August 24, 2009, 04:11 AM posted in General DiscussionWho has the best line in idioms? I am going to lose hands-down, but it could be fun. My inspiration is a book called 'On the smell of an oily rag' by Ouyang Yu, a Chinese perspective on translation challenges, written in English (if that makes sense.) The description 'poison pen' comes to mind (- 中文怎么说？) but it is wonderful stuff - I will share some from time to time,if there is any interest.
A Chinese proverb goes: 一百遮十丑 yi bai zhe shi chou (one white covers up ten uglinesses.) This is juxtaposed with an equally dodgy Australian saying: two Wongs do not make a white, which the author re-transates into Chinese as 两个黄和一个白不一样。
bodawei
August 26, 2009, 09:22 AMI thought it was the Chinese that are always trying to be one up:
We say 'seventh heaven'; the Chinese say 'ninth Heaven'
We say 'at sixes and sevens'; the Chinese say 乱七八糟 ('at sevens and eights')
Any other contributions?
bodawei
August 24, 2009, 08:47 AM@zhenlijiang
I think your interpretation is right on. Ouyang Yu (in his 'no holds barred style) raises this idiom in a Chapter called 白祸 ('White Peril'), in which his thesis I think is that Chinese people are racist but Australians are even worse! [I am guessing the 汉字 because he writes in pinyin.] The English translation is especially clever because it echoes the 'yellow peril' idiom.
As a new resident of Kunming I can't help being reminded of the Chinese idiom - a friend wrote to me hoping (playfully?) that I would not 'begin to look dark-skinned like a peasant'.
changye
August 24, 2009, 10:06 AMHi bodawei
"一白遮十丑" is the exact counterpart of Japanese saying "色の白いは七難隠す", except for number, Zhenlijiang showed above. Both have nothing to do with racism. East Asian women generally prefer "fair-skinned". For that matter, I'm very fair-skinned for a Japanese, and so is my son, but not my daughter. On the contrary, she is dark. She always complains about her "dark fate".
As for "two Wongs do not make a white", its literal Chinese translation should be "两个黄种人还不如一个白人" or "两个亚洲人还不如一个白人". I feel that the author's translation "两个黄和一个白不一样" is a little clumsy, or miss the point. Anyway, there seems to be a dispute over the original meaning of this Australian "saying", as far as I can see the following article "Arthur Calwell" in Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Calwell
bodawei
August 24, 2009, 10:23 AM@changye
Hi - glad to get your comment. First, the translation you refer to as 'clumsy' is mine, it was not written by Ouyang Yu (I should have made that clear.) He is anything but clumsy - he is an astute observer of both Chinese and Australian cultures. His english translation was funny, my Chinese translation of his english was not.
More interestingly, I am intrigued that you think that the idiom is not racist. Although I cannot offer an opinion on the Japanese version, I'm afraid that I don't agree with you on that point. It would be good if you could read the whole chapter on this subject. In my view the 'whitening cream' phenomenon is just the 'tip of the iceberg.'
bodawei
August 24, 2009, 10:35 AM@changye
Thanks also for the link to Calwell's story. (Trivia: someone tried to assassinate him just near my home of 21 years.) I think Calwell's attempt to extricate himself from the remark is a little clumsy. Regardless, it doesn't matter what Calwell thinks or thought, it has often been repeated with racist intentions. Clever, humorous, powerful; because it caught the mood of the times. I am not a Calwell-hater; in fact I have worked hard for that side of politics.
changye
August 24, 2009, 04:28 PMHi bodawei
In general, Japanese men and women prefer "being tall". There is a good market for height growth food/supplements/exercise and elevator shoes. Do you think this also has something to do with racism?
bodawei
August 25, 2009, 08:11 AMHi Changye
No, I can't see a close link between Japanese men and womens' preference for height and racism - it may have something to do with perceived indicators of progress.
But the skin colour thing is another matter. If I used the somewhat looser term 'prejudice', would you go along with that?
changye
August 25, 2009, 09:23 AMHi bodawei
Japanese women's preference for "fair skin" has a long tradition and history in Japan. It dates back more than one thousand years, when Japanese people had no opportunites to see Western people. Face (white) powdering has long been a basic cosmetic treatment for Japanese women. The same was true in the Edo period (1603-1867), when Japan employed a long and strict isolation policy.
That is, women's preference for "fair skin" has independently existed in Japan, regardless of whether or not Caucasian people exist on the earth. I must point out that the author's clam itself is based on his own racism (or inferior complex). In short, he wanted to say, "All the Asian women have a preference for fair skin because superior Caucasian have a fair skin", which is a good example of white supremacy.
bababardwan
August 25, 2009, 10:21 AMI liked Dr Seuss's take on this type of issue in his tale of the Sneetches.So simple a small child can comprehend and yet still so applicable to many adults even to this day.
- "until neither the Plain nor the Star-Bellies knewwhether this one was that one or that one was this oneor which one was what one... or what one was who."
This continues until the Sneetches are penniless and McBean departs a rich man, amused by their folly."
bodawei
August 24, 2009, 08:32 AMOuyang Yu believes that the Chinese have 'one-up' on the Australians:
We say 'on second thoughts', Chinese say 三思 （third thoughts) as in 三思而后行, which can be translated as 'look before you leap'.
We say 'think twice', 'no second chance', and 'second guess', the Chinese say
事不过三 (not doing something for a third time)
再三再四 (over and over again)
三番五次 (many times)
We say 'win-win', and while Chinese translate this Western term as 双赢, they also say 三倍的获胜 (triple win)
I found an example myself: we refer to a fork in the road (two choices); the Chinese say 三岔路口 (which means the same thing.)
RJ
August 25, 2009, 10:22 AMChangye
I have to agree with you here. If the author is looking for prejudice, perhaps he should make a trip to the mirror.
changye
August 25, 2009, 10:46 AMHi kimiik
Actually, I tried to use the ganguro culture as one of rebutting evidences at first, but I didn't because my argument would become a little too complicated. The simpler, the better, hehe. Anyway, I'm always impressed with you knowledge about Japan. Thanks.
P.S. Just look at Japanese Geisha. They all have a extraordinarily "white" face.
http://www.kaigaifudosan.com/blog/media/14/20060118-geisya.jp
bodawei
August 25, 2009, 02:49 PM@changye, rj
I think you are both barking up the wrong tree (if I understand your point.) Ouyang Yu (who I assume you are referring to as 'the author') is a strident opponent of racism, and to suggest that he is motivated by an unconcious belief in white supremacy is beyond my comprehension. He does a lot of work at the interface of white and Asian culture and has seen more racism and prejudice than most of us. Are you guys having trouble seeing the wood for the trees? (I'm trying to get a few idioms in, which is the real point of this board. :-)
@barbs
Your input reminds me of a young woman of Chinese heritage who grew up in Darwin's multi-everything community and testified that she found her first experience at a Sydney university terrifying because people kept asking her 'where did you come from originally?' No-one in her first 20 years of life had seen any point in asking the question. Ah, in many ways I pine for Darwin!
changye
August 25, 2009, 03:15 PMHi bodawei
I've never read the book. I have no way to see both wood and trees at the same time, anyway. So, you are saying that the author is not a racist, on the contrary he is a strident opponent of racism, and he only misinterpreted the real meaning of a Chinese saying "一白遮十丑". Am I right?
Ouyang Yu (who I assume you are referring to as 'the author')
I thought that the Chinese saying was quoted in the book, and the author Ouyang Yu pointed out that the saying has a racism flavor. Am I right? Or, does the paragraph about "一白遮十丑" have nothing to do with the book? I'm rather confused. Please enlighten me.
bodawei
August 25, 2009, 04:33 PM@changye
I may have contributed to your confusion. I'll give the first couple of sentences and you can decide for yourself whether I have misinterpreted his intentions. As I said yesterday (see above) he calls the chapter 'White Peril', a play on the racist term common in Australia in previous decades 'Yellow Peril', and a reference to a thesis written pre WWII by a Chinese-Indonesian man. The chapter starts..'It's probably not known that Chinese are a most colour concious race. A popular Chinese saying goes, yi bai zhe shi chou (one white covers up ten uglinesses.) What does that remind me of in Australia? "Two Wongs do not make a white".'
Later in the chapter he describes the ancient traditions you refer to above, and much more. He cites many examples, linguistic and otherwise, of poor treatment of Chinese people by white races, but he also refers to the treatment of ethnic minorities by the dominant race, including events in China. By my reading he is arguing for more tolerance.
frognotinawell
August 25, 2009, 05:25 PMchangye,
"two Wongs do not make a white" is a pun on an English proverb - "two wrongs don't make a right."
changye
August 26, 2009, 03:18 AMHi frognotinawell
Many thanks. Now I know why I found a lot of "two wrongs don't make a right", or something like that, when I googled "two Wongs do not make a white" a few days ago. I should have noticed it then!!
changye
August 26, 2009, 04:04 AMThanks a lot for your clarification.
In any case, the Chinese saying "一白遮十丑" has nothing to with rasicm for the same reason I showed in my previous comment about Japanese women's traditional love for fair skin. Chinese women's (or men's ?) preference for fair skin dates back more than two thousands years.
Requirements for beauty in Chinese vary across the ages, but it seems that "fair skin" has long been one of important requirements in China. An ancient poetry anthology 《诗经》 also shows some evidences for this. Below is the link to "Thirteen Requirements for Ancient Chinese Beauty".
中国古代美女的十三标准
http://cq.xinhuanet.com/news/2009-01/05/content_15363297.htm
The author's claim just reminds me of so-called "a conspiracy theory". In the case of Ouyang Yu, probably he was apt to see things through racists' eyes, or from the standpoint of racism. I must say that, in short, the author seems to be a little overly obsessed with accusing racism.
I readily admit that racism is everywhere in this world.
zhenlijiang
August 24, 2009, 08:23 AMSorry--this is neither Chinese nor Australian; we have in Japanese
色の白いは七難隠す iro-no shiro-i wa sichi-nan kakusu, an expression of our idea of women's beauty.
I wonder if 一白遮十丑 is different, or means the same.
一白遮五丑 and 一白遮三丑 I'm seeing in articles and promotions for so-called 美白 complexion-whitening or "brightening" products so interesting to East Asian women, these obviously correspond to 色の白いは～. It means that unblemished snow-like skin is by far the most coveted beauty attribute; if you have that, people will easily overlook as many as seven flaws (hardships! = overall homeliness).