把 (介）need examples please - repost

Posted by gesang April 27, 2008 .

Comments

henning says
April 27, 2008

Hi gesang, start here:

把-construction

In: C0284

把-construction (here: 我们会把我们所有的爱都给她)

related

把-construction

In: C0360

把-construction (here: 这五个福娃把奥运文化和中国传统文化完美地结合在了一起。)

related

把-construction

In: C0579

把 + N + 当+ N+ V.

related

把-construction

In: C0623

把-construction (here: 好多老板都把工作推给员工)

related

把-construction

In: C0669

把-construction (here: 你居然把它当做爱好)

related

把-construction

In: C0710

把-construction and the need to use it with 2-characters verbs (here"我再把碗洗掉")

related

把-construction

In: C0725

the 把-construction and the tendency to enlarge the corresponding verb, e.g. 收集 --> (here: 起来 你可以把想学的词收集起来)

In: C0725

complement 起来 in 收集起来and its role in the 把-construction

related

%2F4&search=%E6%8A%8A">related

把-construction

In: C0757

the 把-construction and the need to complement the accompaning verb (here: 把 - 找 + 出来)

wildyaks says
April 27, 2008

Doesn't the book talk about the one ba-construction that we all so love... with the inversion of the object, e.g: 把书放在桌子上。 ba + object + what is to be done with it And I am pretty sure there was a qingwen, and certainly lessons, but maybe somebody else who organizes lessons according to such patterns can ehlp out.

wildyaks says
April 27, 2008

There we go. Henning was faster and way more accurate... :-)

gesang says
April 27, 2008

Thank you Henning and Wildyaks!! Oh, of course i forgot to check your grammar collection post, Henning...searching by cPod search i only found measureword use before i posted this... and it takes so long until you open the lessons... Thanks again! Gesang

lunetta says
April 27, 2008

It doesn't look like there's a qing wen on the subject yet but I'm sure CPod will make one if people start requesting it. I for one think it would be a good subject.

pokkpokk says
April 27, 2008

Hi gesang. I'm sorry I can't deliver the usual examples this time -- Formula One starting very soon! -- but I believe that Henning has given you an incredible amount of amazingly useful information. This "other" use of 把 is well worth spending the time to get comfortable with, it is -- syntactically -- one of the most important words in Mandarin. It's one of those extremely versatile (but maybe impossible to explain!) words. In that sense it reminds me of that German verb, "treiben". Sorry to all the German speakers out there who will be horrified by my ghastly German, but 把 is a bit like a treiben that works on verbs rather than objects. Good luck!

pokkpokk says
April 27, 2008

P/s: Or like the German verb "lassen", maybe.

chillosk says
April 27, 2008

Henning 真厉害！

gesang says
April 27, 2008

Thanks auntie, incredible you even know German Grammar, from what i read in your posts before you are from Singapore, right? wow, i have much to study now with Hennings links, and i also made a note to ask my chinese teacher next time (unfortunately i had to reduce lessons for money reasons...so i am very happy i have the cpod community, too!!!)... i am curious about what she will teach me about it, hope i can add something here afterwards...as it seems i came across quite a topic this morning ;-)...

changye says
April 27, 2008

Hi gesang, One of the most important things in using 把 properly is not to use a “naked” verb. wrong) 你把那个房间收拾。 我把一个苹果吃。 你把那个东西拿。 correct) 你把那个房间收拾收拾。 你把那个房间收拾一下。 你把那个房间收拾干净。 我把那个房间收拾了。 我把那个房间租给他。 我把一个苹果放在桌子上。 我把一个苹果吃了。 我把一个苹果吃掉。 你把那个东西拿回来。 你把那个东西拿来。 你把那个东西拿着。

gesang says
April 27, 2008

Thanks changye, i am really happy to have this compact explanation about ONE thing about this 把, after realizing the complexity of my question ;-)!!!

rjberki says
April 27, 2008

Learning Chinese using CPOD - $x per month by Visa or Mastercard. Threads like this one - PRICELESS!

changye says
April 27, 2008

Hi gesang, CORRECTION, and the second tip for using 把 properly. wrong) > 我把一个苹果放在桌子上。 > 我把一个苹果吃了。 > 我把一个苹果吃掉。 revised) 我把那个苹果放在桌子上。 我把那个苹果吃了。 我把那个苹果吃掉。 In general, the object after 把 need to be a thing or matter that both speaker and listener already know or recognize, therefore you commonly have to add, for example, “我的, 你的, 那个, 这个, 妈妈的, 今天的” to the object. You can use the “把一个～” structure when talking about something as a general thing, like “怎样把一个男孩培养成男子汉!” And you can sometimes omit a possessive word like this, “你把(你的/今天的)作业做完了吗？”.

wei1xiao4 says
April 27, 2008

Changye, that was great! I love that, "no naked verbs" rule when using ba. Hennings has been working on all this input for us for such a long time. I'm not sure how to access it though. I just scour through it looking for the lesson I am working on. Does anyone know a better way to do this. You are right rjberki, this type of info in priceless. 我把你的留言同意了。Did I say that correctly, Changye?

pokkpokk says
April 27, 2008

Dear gesang, I agree with changye. Eg: 我喝了水 wo3 h1le shui3 = I drank (some) water. but: 我把水喝了 wo3 ba3 shui3 he1le = I drank the water Good luck!

henning says
April 27, 2008

wei1xiao1, this is actually how what is meant to be: an index that points at lessons where certain language points are mentioned or discussed in the banter. It has initially been designed to speed up the interlinking the grammar guide...

changye says
April 27, 2008

Hi weixiao, I’m afraid that ”我把你的留言同意了” is not correct, probably. The most natural way to say the similar thing should be that 我同意你的观点(看法，想法, 意见, 说法) or something like that. And let me show you the third tip for 把 structure. Ø 我把你的留言删除了。(deleted) The above sentence is correct because this suggests that you treat or act on (删除) something and get the result (了), which is a basic thought usually underling the 把 structure, therefore generally you cannot use verbs such as “同意” or “理解” with 把. Other examples. Just saying “我把那部电影看了” is not correct since it does not connote you act on 电影, but “我把那部电影拍完了” is OK because in this case, you act on (拍) the 电影 and get the result (完了). Wow, I’m becoming confused about 把 too! “我把那部电影看完了” is also OK. Emphasizing the result of an action (完了) is also a critical function of 把 structure. “我把那部电影看了” is not OK, but “我把那个苹果吃了” is OK, this is just because that the action “吃” is more “active” than “看” (just seeing).

pituitaryadenoma says
April 27, 2008

Dear Changye, 我把那部电影看了, is actually CORRECT, albeit carries a slight difference in its meaning. One must know that most Chinese words had been historically built on just one hanzi, and every hanzi or kanji carries its own meaning independently, it is only until the last 100 years or so more and more words become a compound of 2 or more hanzi, and a lot of them are actually being imported from Japanese language. Going back to the sentence: 1.我把那部电影看了, means I saw that movie. 2.我把那部电影看完了, means I finished seeing that movie. The first sentence means I saw that movie but may not finished seeing the movie, seeing the movie for only 1 second is also considered as seeing. The second sentence means I finished seeing that movie, from head to tail. Therefore, both are right, it really depends on what you want to convey.

changye says
April 27, 2008

Hi pituitaryadenoma Thanks again for your precious information. Actually, I was looking forward to your comment! And I am very pleased to know that you are also interested in the history of relationship between Chinese and Japanese. Your remark below is very right. Even the word 共产主义 is a made-in-Japan word. > a lot of them are actually being imported > from Japanese language.

changye says
April 27, 2008

Hi gesang, Here is the fourth tip for 把 structure, which is very simple. You have to place an auxiliary verb, adverb, and negative adverb BEFORE “把”, not after “把”. 我不把那本书卖给你。 我不想把那本书卖给你。 我不能把那本书卖给你。 我没把那本书卖给他。 我已经把那本书卖给他了。 我们都把那些钱捐给孤儿吧！(all of us) But be careful, 我们把那些钱都捐给孤儿吧！(all the money)

pituitaryadenoma says
April 27, 2008

1.> 我把一个苹果放在桌子上。 2.> 我把一个苹果吃了。 3.> 我把一个苹果吃掉。 The above sentences are actually all CORRECT. Sentence 1 means I put an apple on the table. This is perfectly correct. Everyone says it that way. Sentence 2 is a tricky one, grammatically it may sounds weird on first look, but it is actually NOT WRONG. You must of take into account that Chinese is not only spoken in Beijing or Shanghai or China, there are many other regions both in and outside of China that arrange words in a different order, and they are all correct. Taiwan Mandarin, Malaysia and Singapore Mandarin all have slight differences in the order of words. However, regardless of which order is being used. It is generally understood by anyone who knows the language. Sentence 3 is also another weird one, but it is not wrong. The same reason as above, it can be due to different region variation. This can also be a casual spoken sentence. The trouble about CPOD is that, you all are only hearing the standard Beijing variation. I dare to say more than 95% of Chinese Mandarin speakers don't necessary follow the Beijing's way. Every region has their own way, it is like Australia and British speak English differently, but both of them are not wrong.

pituitaryadenoma says
April 27, 2008

Typo error, Australia --> Australian.

pituitaryadenoma says
April 27, 2008

Changyeさん、あなたは本当に日本人ですけど。。。中国語は上手ですね。 Regarding the 完了. In Japanese, it is a noun when it stands alone, it is a verb when it is 完了する. However in Chinese, this is not the case. In your sentence, 我把那部电影拍完了, you mentioned that it "act on (拍) the 电影 and get the result (完了). " I would suggest it should be explained as 拍完 + 了, you 拍完 the movie, and the 了 is there to emphasize that it is done. It is very different from the Japanese 完了する, where 完了 itself is used as one word. Though your original explanation was not very wrong, but it failed to emphasize the 了 as a stand-alone-word to explain things are "done" in Chinese. Which itself defeat the purpose using 了 in the sentence. In Chinese 完了 can also be used as stand alone word like a noun. Here is an example sentence, 这件丑闻一但被揭发，我的事业，名誉一切都完了。In such a case 完了 is being used as a word.

changye says
April 27, 2008

Hi pituitaryadenoma, > 我把一个苹果放在桌子上。 Thanks. I just understood why the above sentence is correct. On second thought, I can also say, for example, “今天我把一个课文背下来了”. I got it. By the way, I still want to stick with 普通话, for the time being, as much as possible. Otherwise, I would probably end up getting more confused!

changye says
April 27, 2008

Hi pituitaryadenoma, As to 完了, I understand what you would like to say. I think that I should have written "act on (拍) the 电影 and get the result (完＋了). "　 ＞　这件丑闻一但被揭发，我的事业，名誉一切都完了。 ＞　In such a case 完了 is being used as a word. May I ask how to pronounce the 完了 in this sentence? Is it (wan2 le) or (wan2 liao3)? If it is the former one (I’d like to believe so), I guess that 完了 would also be broken down to (完＋了) as you explained in your previous posting. There is the word 完了 (wan2 liao3) in 现代汉语词典, which means “complete” and is a counterpart of 完了 in Japanese. This is of course used as one word. The problem is that I’m not sure which reading is right for 完了 in your example.

changye says
April 28, 2008

Hi gesang, Lastly, let me advise you that you cannot learn how to use “把” properly only by mastering some rules and tips. Please go back to the first comment posted by henning, and get more detailed information and actual usages there.

henning says
April 28, 2008

We definately need a series of Qing Wens on the 把 (each aspect that changye highlighted would be worthy of a seperate one). I hope the QW-team is not afraid of this slightly larger enemy. "QW boss level".

pituitaryadenoma says
April 28, 2008

Dear Changye, Be honest with you, your question is a very tricky one, I don't think there is any correct answer to it. Both pronunciations are acceptable and most people wouldn't care. I personally will pronounce it like this: 1.我把那部电影拍完了, wan2 le here. 2.这件丑闻一但被揭发，我的事业，名誉一切都完了. I remember I used to pronounced it as wan2 liao3, but now I am pronouncing it as wan2 le. I don't know why I am pronouncing it in such as way, may be because everyone is pronouncing it like that. So I guess there is no right or wrong answer. Both are right anyway, and you will have no trouble at all whichever you use. However, only the 2nd sentence 完了 is like the Japanese 完了. Your original explanation of the 1st sentence was not wrong either.

wei1xiao4 says
April 28, 2008

Thanks changye and everyone for this great lesson!

cassielin says
April 28, 2008

Hi guys, Your comments remind me about“把”字句and“被”动句. These two sentence structures are interchangeble. Here are the examples: 1.这本书被我看完了。=我把这本书看完了。 I finished (reading) this book. 2.苹果被我吃完了。=我把苹果吃完了。 I ate all the apples.(=All the apples were ate by me.) 3.花瓶被他打碎了。=他把花瓶打碎了。 He broken the vase.(=The vase was broken by him.) 4.他被他女朋友甩了。=他女朋友把他甩了。 His girl friend dumped him.(=He was dumped by his girl friend.)

trevelyan says
April 28, 2008

You guys know the song 不留 by Wang Faye? A really great song by a phenomenal artist: http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=_xaZkIYtd8I Grammar patterns speaks for itself. Ending is a bit confusing to me though. 也许吧? The tone seems to suggest apathetic indifference. Haven't had that feeling myself (in a love song?). Maybe I just can't relate. 我把风情给了你日子给了他 我把笑容给了你宽容给了他 我把思念给了你时间给了他 我把眼泪给了你责任给了他 我把照片给了你日历给了他 我把颜色给了你风景给了他 我把距离给了你无言给了他 我把烟花给了你(我把)节日给了他 我把电影票给了你我把座位给了他 我把烛光给了你晚餐给了他 我把歌点给了你麦克风递给他 声音给了你画面给了他 我把情节给了你结局给了他 我把水晶鞋给了你十二点给了他 我把心给了你身体给了他 情愿什么也不留下再也没有什么牵挂 如果我还有哀伤让风吹散它 如果我还有快乐也许吧 如果我还有哀伤让风吹散它 如果我还有快乐也许吧

changye says
April 28, 2008

Hi casie, Thank you for your supplement. It is very interesting to know the relation between “把 structure” and “被 structure”. And I believe that they don’t have the same nuance, even though they are structurally interchangeable. For example, I feel that “他被他女朋友甩了” sounds more tragic than “他女朋友把他甩了” does! Is it just because I am a man......?

pituitaryadenoma says
April 28, 2008

Hmm...他被他女朋友甩了 and 他女朋友把他甩了 carries the same feeling, it is just a different way of arranging a sentence. The first one does not sound more tragic than the second one, so is the vice versa. The “把 structure” and “被 structure” examples given by Casie DO HAVE the SAME nuances. There isn't a slight difference in its meaning.

gesang says
April 28, 2008

Wow, changye and all the others, thank you so much! As i said before i wasn't aware of the big topic I came to by accident. I didn't even really post special question about 把, right ;-)? Its amazing, I come back from work and find my post turned into a kind of 把 grammar dictionary! And, yes i think i have to go to ALL the lessons Henning linked here!!! It will take some time to work through all those points here, too, and it seems there is so much more 把 stuff left! but even though I also would love to have a 请问 on this! thanks again, and i will definitely be back here after i really dived into the 把 usage! Gesang

changye says
April 28, 2008

Hi pituitaryadenoma, Really? If those sentences are translated into Japanese, I know that I would feel slight difference in nuance, especially from the last sentences. To me, “he” in the “被” sentence is a little “miserable” than in the “把” version, although of course both sentences are NOT pleasant to males anyway……!!

pituitaryadenoma says
April 28, 2008

Ha....well, this is not Japanese. To study Chinese you have to think in the Chinese way, not the Japanese way. Remember when you start translating, some meaning will be lost or added, it will no longer be original. It doesn't really matter whether is "被 dumped" or "把 dump", it still means the boyfriend got dumped, the feeling is exactly the same.

cassielin says
April 28, 2008

Hi changye, 他被他女朋友甩了。他女朋友把他甩了。These two sentences are the same meaning. But I can understand you that the second one sounds more tragic than the first one. It is up to your own feeling. ^_^ Cassie

pokkpokk says
April 28, 2008

Hi pituitaryadenoma, if it's not too personal a question, what is your Chinese language background? You sound like you might be ethic Chinese; is this your first language? Reason I ask is that I am not as advanced a student as you are (clearly), but sometimes your advice on Mandarin seems to be a bit different from what I'm used to hearing. Just curious...

changye says
April 29, 2008

Hi casie, I suppose that I have two main reasons why I feel that “被 structure” sounds a little more “tragic” to me than “把 structure” does. First, in Japanese, the character “被” often implies a negative nuance, i.e. “suffer”. Its typical example words should be “被害” and “被告”, which are also seen in Chinese. The second reason is, I hesitate to say this, probably because of my younger-days trauma being dumped by some of my girlfriends..........

cassielin says
April 29, 2008

Oh, poor changye.

light487 says
April 29, 2008

So.. You don't say: I took it from your room. Unless they already know what "it" was first.. is that the general idea you are saying about "naked verbs"? A: Where is my toy? B: I took it from your room. So both A and B need to define what it is before they can talk about "it" without referring to it generally?

pituitaryadenoma says
April 29, 2008

Dear auntie68, Yup, I am a native speaker. I am learning Spanish from Spanishpod.com and bumped into this site. I don't know what you mean by my advice is different from what you heard? Example? I guess the reason you may feel that way is because "text-book-Standard-Chinese-for-non-native" is quite different from real Chinese spoken by native. For example: 你好吗？, this phrase seems to become a standard phrase being taught to a non-native first lesson, as most native English speakers use "How are you?" to greet each other, therefore it is assumed that Chinese greet each other by saying 你好吗？ too. However this is not the real case, most Chinese speakers don't greet each other by asking 你好吗？, having said that it is weird to most Chinese speakers. Though grammatically correct, 你好吗？ is not commonly being used among natives.

pokkpokk says
April 29, 2008

Hi. Thanks, pituitaryadenoma, for your answer. Which part of China are you from?

wuyuqinyue says
April 20, 2009

世界各地的朋友，大家好，我很高兴和大家一起来分享学习普通话的乐趣，谢谢大家。