Learning Multiple Languages

When I started learning Chinese I was engrossed in Japanese but began to become more interested in Chinese so gradually I just gave up on Japanese.

I may not be so smart, but I found myself becoming a bit confused learning both concurrently, so part of the reason I fell away from Japanese is that I had to make a choice which one I was going to focus on, otherwise I felt like I would never be able to master one or the other.

I've began to go back to Japanese again recently and I don't feel the same confusion as before, however I still feel like learning Japanese will pull me away from my goal of true fluency in Mandarin.

That coupled with the fact that Japanesepod101 is SOOOOOOOOO CHEEEEESY! The founder of the site, Peter Galante makes cheesy Ryan Seacrest look like Johnny Carson! And the co-hosts are so insincere and non-energetic they make Mr. Schwede feel like a DYNAMO!

The typical Japanesepod101 lesson:

Peter: So Sakura San, what did you think of the dialogue?

Sakura San: Uuuummmmmm, I thought it's.....um....it's good....

Peter: So Watanabe San, what did you think of today's dialogue?

Watanabe San: UUUUUmmmmmm.....I think it's pretty good....

Peter: But do people talk like that in real life? C'mon be honest!

Watanabe San: (pause).....(LONG pause)...(still more pause) Uuuuummmmm......yeah....I think they do....

Peter: But is this useful?

Watanabe San: (uncomfortable silence accompanied by additional uncomfortable silence and uneasy rustling around in the seat) uuuummmmmm.....yeah...I think it's nice.....to ask someone how they are doing....I think it's pretty good....

It's such a far cry from the bright, personable and funny hosts here on Chinesepod.

I guess my point being that it might just be the lack of interesting material that is blocking me from effectively learning the two languages concurrently. Still I really feel if I have interesting learning materials in both languages and no desire to master one before the other that learning two or more concurrent languages is very possible!

Yup, Environment is critical. Learning a language (or mutliple languages) in a bubble can be tiresome for one regardless of age. Retention and fluency really can't be expected to happen sans interaction within a large pool of native speakers... the receptive and expressive channels need to be exercised with regularity. For those debating which languages to teach their children, ask which language groups are most readily available in the community to be immersed in. For myself, learning Spanish as a young student in the (anglo & african american) rustbelt of the northeastern United States was fruitless....now that I'm living in the southwest the flow has been steadier. As for my Chinese... lets just say I'm having to initiate lots of conversations with the staffers at the local Chinese eateries!

Pulosm

My mother tongue is English not French hence me speaking to my son in English.

Lantian is right. Children will speak the language of their friends and their environment.

Thanks, Lantian! I think you are right on. Greek and Spanish were my strongest languages growing up (other than English), precisely because my grandparents only spoke Greek and people where I lived, my friends' parents, etc. only spoke Spanish (southern California). My Armenian grandparents spoke English, so I would resort to English a lot with them doing what you described your friend's child as doing.

Maybe I will deceive my children into believing I don't speak English. :-)

Hi pulosm,

I think your biggest struggle will be the mono-lingual environment of the U.S., which I think is where you are. Your child when starting school will "want" to speak what all the other kids speak. All the effort you spend in years 1-5 can slip away very quickly.

If you can comfortably switch in the various languages at home, the child will figure out within what context to use a particular language. Much like Hennings child. Children may spend more "time" figuring things out, so can seem "delayed" in language compared to other kids, until that is that they figure it all out and switch back and forth easily.

I think another challenge is also creating a need for the child to "output" in the various languages, versus just listening to you speak in various languages and then responding back in English.

There needs to be other "participants" in the environment that "cannot comprehend" the child when the child speaks to them in say English. This is where extended families with say grandparents interacting with the children help to build up the child's output in that language. Thus your idea of the aupur is right on.

As a concrete example, I know a Chinese person here (China), who has very decent English, he speaks to his son in English all the time, but 98% of the time, although the kid understands what dad said to him, he responds in Chinese. His English pronunciation is a little better than other kids here though, when he does speak in English.

Just some thoughts.

henning, this does not sound devastating. Actually it sounds awesome. Your son sounds like he is going to speak both german and chinese just fine.

P.S.: Only after his grandpa called it "Space Shuttle" he found the truth!

Oh there can be devastating side effects of talking to your kids in a second language.

My son got a toy Space Shuttle last week and my wife taught him that this thing is called "航天飞机". Because of that "飞机" he called it "Flugzeug" (plane) afterwards in German.

I had a fierce debate with him over that issue - he insisted that this it is a "Flugzeug" and by no means a "Space Shuttle". I explained that I could also live with "Raumschiff" (space ship), but not with "Flugzeug".

After a while he got angry and closed the debate by resolutely calling the Shuttle "Eisenbahn-Zug" (railway/train).

;)

Now you've got me curious. With that kind of background, why did you end up learning Cantonese of all things!? And how did you learn it?

The confusing differences you mentioned... well I'll have to know a lot more Cantonese before they impact on me, but it seems to reinforce my belief that you're better off learning little phrases (along with their variations and contexts) instead of words, and never fussing over individual characters without a good reason.

I suspect kids learn their communication that way too, and break it down years later. My second class teacher was mystified by my request for the spelling of "smorning", until the whole class yelled "Oh, you know, Miss! The smorning! The smorning!"

I also like the point about kids not wanting to do the very thing we have our hearts set on them doing. So true! And kids change orientations as they grow. All we can do is provide a broad range of opportunities, and be ready to pick up on whatever interests they show. For example, good fun caring adult who visits speaking another language is quite likely to ignite an existing spark.

Interesting discussion! Thanks both of you. Mike, would you not agree, though, that the child's English wasn't damaged and though her/his French wasn't "parfait" it would be better than no foundation at all? That is, if that child decided to learn French later, then she/he would have a better chance learning it properly, than someone with NO exposure?

Also, Mike, I am unclear on something. You said you are native French speaker and it sounds like your wife is, too. But you chose to speak to your child in English. Though I'm sure your English is excellent, don't you think that there are some things that might "give you away" as non-native (accent, word choice, etc.)???

Take for example John or Amber. What if you were as good at Chinese as they are? Their accents are perceivable only in a few words and intonation once in a while. They sound pretty damn good for a foreigner. If I speak Chinese them (hypothetically), would you still advise me NOT to speak to my children in Chinese.

AuntySue, I think you are right about opening up a child's mind to learn languages later. I grew up speaking Spanish, Greek, Armenian, and English all before the age of five. Even when my Armenian was stuck in a child's level, I was able to reabilitate it later as an adult. Also, it made Chinese so much easier on me than my monolingual classmates. Also, I FULLY agree with you re: Cantonese! I learned Cantonese FIRST so I had the reverse experience, but it's true, you don't "really" appreciate what words mean until you see how they are used in other "dialects" of Chinese. Good luck! I am glad you are doing this! I find hardest the subtle differences. The example that always comes to mind is 你先去 (mandarin) 你去先 (cantonese). It took me a while to put that 先 first, especially because the cantonese word order matches english better.

Okay, that's long enough.

AuntySue

To be honest, it doesn't modify my opinion much. The approach sounds too contrived. I would surprised if his children will 'play the game'. My own experience is often that what you wish too hard for your children is not what they themselves want, and forcing it on them just doesn't work.

If his children show initiative in this direction then support it by all means.

Mike, you have a valid point, but take another look at pulosm's last post. He doesn't have the overabundance of confidence that a professional Chinese teacher would have, he recognises the pitfalls, and plans to provide an environment enriched with native speakers. Does that modify your caution at all?

I am going to disagree with Auntie Sue.

I believe In general it is a mistake to try to teach your children a language that you are not wholly fluent in. I remember well meeting a pair of English people who were both school teachers of French. They were trying to talk to their young child in French. To my ears (and to my French wife's ears) this was unfortunate. Their accent, their choice of language register, their child vocabulary were all very non-native. It is just not natural.

Although the language of my home was French, I felt that my contribution was to talk to my child in English (and to my wife in French).

I don't think it's dangerous at all, particularly if you're aware of your own limitations, which you obviously are. Some families learn languages together with no background and little support. Your enthusiasm for Chinese will be contagious, and give you all an external language interest to share.

Nobody said that kids have to become fluent in all of the languages they use as a child, nor that they should continue to use them, or remember them.

I've met people who have used a relatively complex language such as Greek with their family as a child, and complained in later life that they didn't keep it up and lost it completely. I don't see it as a great loss, because it was easy to see that their early use of that language had prepared more flexible brain pathways and general understanding of what language is, that prepared them well for learning any language in the future. It also seems like it has more general benefits that can pay back in other areas such as mathematics or art.

Now that I've started learning a bit of Cantonese too, I find I'm getting more than the value of two languages. There's a lot of insight that comes from the combined exposure to Mandarin and Cantonese, a new perspective on what "Chinese" really is, and a new way of deeply knowing every Mandarin word and every Cantonese word against that broader perspective. The brain looks for these angles and payoffs automatically, so there's no extra work involved to reap the set of bonus rewards.

For thousands of years Australian Aboriginal families have commonly spoken 4, 5 or 6 distinct languages at home, none of them with a population more than a few thousand speakers. That was no big deal, because they expected Grandma and Cousin and Neighbour and Spouse to speak different languages, until Europeans moved in with the idea that everyone should speak English no matter what their background, and those traditional assumptions and skills were lost.

So why not teach them whatever languages you'll get a real buzz out of using with them yourselves, and of much of each one as you all find useful. Kids will put a lot of energy into something that they can share with parents that makes the parents enjoy interacting with them. Any languages will benefit them, and provided they can use one with ease to communicate with relatives, surely it doesn't matter how many others they are exposed to from an early age, the more the merrier I reckon.

Thanks for all your input to my question. I have a follow-up question...is it "dangerous" to teach a child a language that you are not a native speaker in. My Chinese is pretty good and my accent is actually pretty good, too, but I worry that since it is not my native language (didn't start learning Mandarin until college) that that might be a bad idea. I was also thinking, though, that it might not be a big deal because I would supplement with Chinese-speaking au pair, language toys, videos, etc. Any thoughts?

Pulosm: Earlier in the thread, you posted a link to Stuart Jay Raj's blog. After spending more time there, I discovered that he currently uses four languages when interacting with his children, and there haven't been any problems.

Also, my dad was telling me the other day about a guy he worked with who grew up in Texas. Because of the local demographic of his childhood, he became fluent in both Spanish and Comanche, with English as his mother-tongue. He said they didn't really think anything about it when they were kids. You were just as likely to have Spanish- or Comanche-speaking friends as you were to have English-speaking friends, and if you wanted to communicate with them, you eventually acquired their language.

Anyway, I think you should teach your kids what you can. They'll most likely be grateful for it when they grow up.

Pulosm

You are clearly quite a linguist and have an amazing mixed language background. I cannot match that, but my suggestion to you would be very simple: Give them the language(s) of your heritage.

2 corrections:

The key to grammar and structure is to be able to hold an entire sentence ,compound or complex, in your short term recall.

Is when I threw the grammar books in the river

You can study any number of languages at the same time, especially if you make understanding the spoken language your main objective and leave aside speaking until speaking develops naturally as your short term recall in the language develops. However, there are only twenty four hours to the day and our progress in a language depends upon the time and attention we can give to it. When you study several languages at the same time, it is like running several horses in a horse race. The language which receives the most attention tends to develop more than the ones which receive less attention. Also, it depends upon the type of material available to you. The ideal would be to have Chinese Pod type material available for your study of the language, but that is not always possible. I have studied seven or eight languages at the same time with the object of understanding stories in the language. Since I am not travelling anywhere, I feel no need to speak, but In my experience, if you can really understand the spoken language at the gut level as you do English, when you go to the country or find yourself on a foreign plane, your ability to speak comes forth naturally. My experience has taught me that the key to language learning is understanding well the spoken language. For increasing vocabulary, this would include learniing works of literature always emphasizing the fact that language is primarily sound attached to meaning and that writing is a secondary form. Also, what one can hold in one's short term recall of what one hears, one is very close to being able to speak. The key to grammar and structure is to be an entire sentence in your short term recall. That is when the structure begins to reveal itself. With the study of Russian with its six cases is when I throw the grammar books in the river and never asked again "Why?", since I knew the answer was "Because that's the way we do it. My first class in grammar was in the sixth grade when I was already fluent in English. And my grammar was simply "It doesn't sound right." This is what I carry into my study of any language. I just learn equivalent phrases and equivalent sentences and leave the rest to God.

Christian, thanks!

Sparechange, Armenian and Greek.

Pulosm, for what it's worth, my parents passed their own native tongues on to me. Thanks to them I speak Spanish and Danish. Spanish is more useful in that it has higher network externalities, but Danish allows me to live and work in Denmark which I really value. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that the value languages give you comes as much from their business usefulness as from the value they give to your own concrete life.

I think your children will appreciate speaking the languages you speak and reading the stuff you've read.

Also, I don't think you have to choose between teaching them two or four. Maybe try putting them in a school where one of those languages is spoken and taught, and putting more effort into teaching them the rest yourself. Consider getting an au pair or nanny who speaks language number 4.

I also wouldn't worry too much about overloading them with different languages, at least not if they're really young. When I was young I spoke my parents' languages, learned French because I lived in France, and even picked up some Arabic (which I've since lost) from our nanny.

At that age learning languages is a breeze. Now that I'm older and wiser I am also more humble.

Sorry if you clarified this already, pulosm, but what are the first two languages?

*Advice*

I have thought about this teaching kids languages thing and am really not sure how to approach it. I have four languages I want my kids to speak (in addition to English), but I think that that is somewhat difficult to do or to expect from a child. Maybe?

My problem is that two of the languages are not "useful" in the everyday sense (they only have 10 million and 7 million speakers respectively), while two are extremely useful (the latter two are Mandarin and Spanish). But, those first two are languages of my heritage and so I think they are important.

I don't know. My mind tells me to focus on Mandarin and Spanish, but I'm not sure. Any advise?

Pulosm:

That's cool that you saw the Mormon missionary speaking Hakka. I picked up a little Taiwanese while I was there but definitely focused on Mandarin. It was fun learning some of the little phrases in Taiwanese and it helped a lot in terms of breaking the ice and getting people laughing, etc. It seems like people really open up to you when they see a white guy speaking their language. Even here in LA/OC area, people can't believe it when they hear me speaking near perfect Mandarin, but when I bust out the Taiwanese lines, they really freak out!

Pulosm and Spare Change:

Thanks for your comments. Pulosm, your comments regarding the LA/OC area are spot on. I understand that kids will be kids and that many of them won't be interested in learning the language of their parents; however, I think that the parents should still only speak to the kids in their mother language from day 1, so that the kids will at least learn that as their first spoken language. I realize that many of them won't want to go to school to study this language, but they should at least have it as their first spoken language and be able to understand it perfectly.

Re: Immigrants w/Children -- My preference is that the parents would pass along the language and other traditions to their children. However, I also understand (in line with pulosm) that kids will be kids, and they typically don't see the value in such things at that age. It's only after they reach adulthood that their minds begin to change. I hear a similar refrain (no pun intended) from adults regarding music: "I took some lessons when I was a kid, but I lost interest and quit after a while. I really wish I would've stuck with it."

Anyway, if I were the parent, I would do my best to make sure the language was passed on. But I can understand why it would be difficult to do so.

Aunty Sue, I have read your stuff on CantonesePod. Good luck with Cantonese! I learned Cantonese when I was younger, so the 6 (or 9) tones weren't hard for me (and of course, Mandarin tones are a breeze after that!) Good luck! I am happy to see people studying Cantonese!!!

Greg,

From my experience growing up with Chinese people in LA/OC, it's not so much that the parents don't want to speak the language, but that the kids don't. I went to Cantonese school as a child; parents forced their kids to go. As the only non-Chinese kid, I was the only kid interested in learning. The other kids hated going. I think that the problem is that the language has some inherent difficulties for maintanence abroad. For instance, unlike Spanish, it is not phonetic, it is not as ubiquitous, etc. Though, in Orange County, you will find that most Vietnamese kids do speak Vietnamese at home, which I credit to the size and consolidation of a critical mass of Vietnamese people in Westminster/Garden Grove and the fact that Vietnamese uses the Roman alphabet (somewhat), which complements the alphabet they learn in school (for English).

When I was in Taiwan, I saw a Mormon missionary talking to my roommate in Hakka and I was super impressed. I only understand like 70% of what people say in Hakka (from my roommate and Cantonese), but I can tell he was really good. Anyway, just thought of that.

AuntySue: Well, if I ever see you burning incense with a cynical look on your face, at least I'll know what's going on. :-) I wonder if your experience working with computers has contributed to your ability to keep a one-track mind when using human languages. I don't know if you consider yourself a programmer or not, but I know you've talked about using command-line interfaces before. And while I don't know much about that stuff, I do know different environments require different syntaxes which for the most part are not interchangeable (at least not if you want it to function properly). Seems possible anyway.

Christian: I agree that it depends on what type of learner you are. I guess I'm still trying to figure that out. When I was initially deciding which language(s) I wanted to study, I eventually narrowed it down to a couple of choices. I spent some time researching them both, and I did so by trying to devote time to them both every night. Eventually, I realized that approach wouldn't be feasible over the long-term.

I think if I were to try again, I would probably take the approach you suggested of alternating days. Also, I think having a head-start in Mandarin would make the task seem less daunting. When I first started trying to research two languages, it was pretty difficult trying to retain all the fundamentals for each language at the same time.

Another thing to consider, which others have mentioned, is availability of resources for learning the languages. Are there learning materials available? If so, what level do they go to? Is there broadcast media available? Are there native speakers in the area (very important)? I don't want to take on multiple languages unless I know I have the resources to keep the momentum.

What kind of study set-up are you thinking of, Sparechange? That might have some effect on how things play out for you. I can imagine that if you alternate one day for each language, where you not only study it but also try to expose yourself to as much of it during the day (music, TV, etc.) that would help you not mix them up, or mix them up less. This site suggests that you should never try to learn two languages concurrently, but I suspect it depends more on what kind of learner you are.

LEVELED CONFUSION - I'd like to echo some of the other comments about how your "level" in another language can cause overlap/confusion.

When I first started to study Chinese, I was somewhat fluent in Japanese. Often times when I searched for Chinese words, Japanese words would come out of my mouth. When I tried to speak Japanese a almost hopeless mish-mash of alternating Japanese/Chinese would come out of my mouth, sometimes Spanish too.

Now, I can comfortably speak in Chinese or English comfortably, but still don't mix within a sentence like some truely bilingual people do. I need to spend a few minutes within each language before switching out.

Unfortunately, without having had much of any Japanese input/output in recent times, it is slipping tremendously.

I think if one were to learn concurrently, it would be vital to have constant exposure in your environment to both also. And expect your mind to "search" for whatever words it may know to express your thoughts.

I mix spanish and chinese up all the time, especially when trying to speak spanish. I mix up "de" and 的, "yo" and 我, and always want to say 他 when I mean to say "el" or "ella."

I've just started learning Cantonese, so it's too early to form any conclusions but it feels like it won't be too confusing. When I speak Cantonese it feels like I'm a different person to the person who speaks Mandarin, and my (imaginary) audience is different. Even when reading the characters, even when the whole sentence is exactly the same text, I'll read it in Cantonese and have no idea what it is in the other language, until I read it again in Mandarin. It's not deliberate, it just happens that way. What I never do is try to compare or cross-translate them, though I do explore any startling similarities that spring up and that seems to enrich my understanding of Mandarin too.

So what I'm hoping is that as my Cantonese learning increases and I bring back Mandarin study as well, those types of naturally forming partitions will still be in effect and avoid confusion. But at "lesson two" level it's too early to say for sure.

Once when I was at university I had to cram for exams in unrelated subjects that contained overlapping content, where the answer to a question would be different depending on the study subject that was being examined. I did several things that seemed to work. I covered all of my books in different colours, used different colours and types of pens (this was pre-computers), studied in different rooms, and studied in the presence of a particular smell for each subject, e.g. eucalyptus, lemon, ginger. I also tried to get into particular mood for each subject - calm and confident, fascinated, determined worker, and for one I confess it was cynical mood. On exam day I could take a scented hanky with me, use the right sort of pen, and wore a shirt of the corresponding colour, and approached each exam paper by employing its familiar state of mind. It seemed to work at the time.

So far I haven't needed to use any of those tricks for separating languages, but it's still early days, and I have them up my sleeve.

As for putting "ma" at the end of questions, well of course that's just natural. All languages benefit from the use of the question ma particle, and we should continue to apply it to every language we speak ba. :-)

It's funny you should say that because I definitely recognize that feeling. Danish is a very monotone language (which doesn't make it any easier learning mandarin :-) and we don't gesticulate much or talk very loudly. When I speak Italian I do all of these things. I modulate my voice a lot more, I use gestures all the time (is it even possible to speak Italian without moving your hands?) and I become louder as well.

It sometimes can result in somewhat embarrassing episodes, e.g. on the train when I answer my cell phone. The unspoken rule here in Denmark is that you don't speak loudly on your phone when in public so I don't do that when answering a call in Danish. However, if the call is from someone Italian I automatically speak a lot louder because that's just what you do in Italian and of course it lands me a lot of annoyed looks from my fellow passengers.

lunetta: I've often wondered if switching languages is somewhat like becoming a different person for a moment, almost like when actors get "in character." Switching in and out requires a lot of effort and concentration, which is why some actors never break out of character when they're on the set of a movie. When switching languages, you're not merely switching words around; you're changing your cadence, tone of voice, cultural nuances, etc.

I've never had any troubles studying more languages concurrently but then I've done most of my basic language learning in school. I began learning English when I was 11 and German at 13 and in high school I added on Italian and I took all three on the highest level possible. When in school it's not really a problem because you're in a situation where you can concentrate fully on your learning.

However I've noticed that I sometimes become confused if I have to switch between English and Italian, especially if it has to happen quite suddenly. Somehow my brain is all geared to speak one foreign language and when I then try to switch to another foreign language it has some sort of short circuit making me babble incoherently when I'm actually fluent in both.

greg

I wholeheartedly agree with your comments. One of my abiding regrets is that there was not a conscious effort on my nor my parents' part to retain my Mandarin language skills after immigrating to the US as a young child. It's way harder to gain facility with a language as an adult even if that language was my first tongue.

goulniky,

It doesn't matter whether you have the skills of a polyglot or not. To me you are truly an amazing fellow! As far as learning multiple languages at the same time I think it all depends upon one's expectations. You hit the nail right on the head when you talked about the time that it takes to learn a language when you have to balance that time against work, recreation, and personal relationships. I think the problem for most people is that to experience any return on the investment of the time that it takes to become proficient they need to concentrate on one language at a time. I have long ago given up the expectation of becoming proficient in anything but my native English and the Spanish of the country where I now live and work. However, I enjoy learning a about several other languages because it gives me a greater understanding of how other people think and with the language you can't help but pick up some history and culture too. I don't know if I will ever get beyond the high elementary low intermediate level with Mandarin Chinese but the things that I have learned by participating with ChinesePod makes the effort more than worthwhile. For this reason I invite you and everyone else to participate in SpanishSense to some degree and if you are not in an all fired hurry to learn Spanish at least you can pick up some useful phrases and a bit of the culture and have fun doing so. Think of it as a break from Chinese once in awhile. There are two new teachers coming on board, Juan Patricio and Liliana and starting very soon we are going to have a rollicking good time. It is my understanding that Liliana is going to host a cultural show similar to Dear Amber. I am betting that it will become very popular as well. Be sure to check it out.

¡Saludos a todos!

I agree with you, Greg. My parents both come from different countries, and I grew up in different third countries. They each spoke to me in their native languages (though we had Spanish as the "family tongue" for when were all together). Those were the first languages I learned and I still speak them the best, and roll my eyes every time I hear someone say parents should only speak in one language to their children, or risk confusing them.

Confusion, alas, comes when one is older.

I definitely know what everybody means about throwing in Chinese words, etc. when you're trying to speak Spanish. My Chinese is fluent and my Spanish isn't nearly as good as it used to be so I throw in "ni" instead of "tu" etc. all the time. One thing I want to bring up is how it's such a shame when parents move to America and don't speak their mother language in the home with the kids. It seems that sometimes the parents insist on speaking English with the kids to fully immerse them. My feeling is that the kids are living in America and can speak all the English they want outside of the home with friends, in school, other activities, etc. It's just a shame to know so many people from China, Taiwan etc. whose parents didn't pass on such a valuable language to their kids. Parents have to start from the very beginning though because otherwise, once the kids are in school, etc. they might be embarrassed to speak Chinese because they want to be "American".

Children in secondary scholls in the Netherlands learn at least 4 languages concurrently. Dutch, Frernch, English and German. Than extra can be chosen for Latin, Greek,and Spanish. Politicians now want the kids to have the option as well to lean Mandarin. 荷兰是一个小国，所以我们有很多的外国 ！

goulniky: I think I'm in a similar situation. I'm sure my job isn't as demanding as yours, but I still tend to divide my time between several different things. And I'm a bit of a perfectionist as well. Perhaps if I devoted most or all of my free time to language learning, I could effectively learn two languages side by side from the ground up. Unfortunately, that's just not feasible at the moment. My plan for right now is to focus on Mandarin for a while longer, and then maybe start a language that would be relatively easier for me (like Spanish). I think staggering the levels might reduce the possibility of brain overload.

I wondered what your native language was...I couldn't pick out your accent when you appeared on News & Features. Great job, BTW.

Japanese is actually the only language I seem to confuse with Chinese. Sometimes when I'm studying Chinese, little pieces of Japanese will come to me--which is remarkable, really, since I only had three semesters 15 years ago and never reinforced it by visiting Japan! I wonder what the trigger is? I would guess the 汉字, except that I never did manage to learn many of them back in the day. Maybe it's the occasional cognates. I do tend to pronounce 可爱 in Japanese. :-)

I once tried learning japanese at the same time I was learning chinese. This greatly interfered with my progress. I am a native spanish speaker and found that japanese pronunciation is very easy for spanish speakers, however, the confusion was looking at characters. I was pronouncing them in chinese since it was my strongest language at the time.

I don't recommend studying concurrently because you spend extra energy trying to discern the one from the other. Instead I advocate you concentrate in the one that attracts you the most. The advantage is you will improve at a faster rate than doing concurrent studies.

I guess it depends on your language learning abilities / style, the amount of time you can dedicate to it and the goal you want to achieve. I am on the perfectionist side, wanting to reach 'functional fluency', with a demanding job and a life to live. I don't have the skills of a polyglot, and actually doubt how many people do or that they're even a useful example to follow. Anyway, for me vocab just takes forerever to sink in, but I do have good visual memory and audio-mimicking skills.

So when I tried (unsuccesfully) to learn German and Chinese, I failed miserably with both languages. The fascination with Chinese being so much stronger, this is where I put my efforts, even though German would be way more useful on a daily basis. It was not was so much confusion or intermixing as the sheer requirement for brain power.

If I had time I think switching between two languages (or two different topics altogether) would actually be advantageous, by alternating chunks of 20-40 minutes, but I don't.

BTW, I'm a native French speaker with near-native, self-taught English I've been using in my daily work for many years.

Lailaash, this is very common. Your mind will cling to what it categorizes as the "foreign language," and will easily confuse the two, so when you grasp for a Chinese word, a Spanish word comes out.

As for confusing near-native languages. When I came back from China/Taiwan after being there for a year, when I would speak Spanish (one of my first languages as a kid), I found myself every once in a while adding "ma" to my questions!!! It sounded like I was asking the question to my mother. I would say "Quieres ir ma?" Because in Spanish, as you know, you don't have particles or word order changes for questions--the difference between the question and the statement is just the tone. I felt like it was missing something.

You know what I mean ma? ;-)

I studied Chinese and Spanish concurrently because I never would have thought it possible to confuse the two, but it was. For me, the confusion depends more on how close the two language levels are rather than whether you're actually studying them concurrently. For instance, I'm near-native in both English and Russian, and sometimes (in my thinking rather than speaking) the two mix, which prevents me from expressing my thoughts very coherently in one or the other. When I started studying Spanish after already having an upper-intermediate level in Chinese, I found that I often thought of the Chinese word (because it was more accessible) instead of the Spanish. I suppose my brain groups languages by level and, whenever I try to speak a particular language, it accesses all languages in that language group.

The moral of the story might be to get to a very good level in one language before starting another, in which case studying them concurrently shouldn't hinder the learning process.

Thanks everyone for the input!

pulosm: I bookmarked that guy's blog. That was pretty amazing. It was really interesting how he made all those connections between Vietnamese and languages he had already learned. I would love to be at that point.

aeflow: I've found that my brain behaves similarly when I'm learning music. If I take a break for a week or so, it's almost as though it gives my brain time to take out the trash. I'm sure you were talking about longer breaks between languages, but it's the same principle. It's very hard for me to do, because I'm always afraid I'm going to lose momentum. But it usually turns out to be quite beneficial in the end.

I haven't found it more advantageous either way in terms of academics. With concurrency, I found that I wanted to master one rather than learn two. Others might find concurrency a more interesting method. Any difference in effectiveness was not noticeable to me.

I tend to do languages consecutively in alternation. As in, OK, for the next few months I'll concentrate on, say, Spanish, and other languages go into maintenance mode. Then after that, Chinese. And so forth.

One reason is, if you study a language for twice as many hours per day, you get a lot more than twice as much benefit or improvement. In my experience, it seems to be almost a power law: if you study twice as long every day, you get four or more times the benefit. Up to, say, a maximum of four hours a day... beyond that, your brain saturates and it's time to do something else.

So if you're splitting your available language study time between two or more languages each day, you're probably robbing yourself of the opportunity to improve faster.

Another thing I often find is that after taking a short break from a language, then when you get back into it your mind is very receptive. You can very rapidly get back to your previous level and then make very rapid progress for the next few months. Perhaps the mind craves variety, or something.

When a language is in "maintenance mode", conversational ability and active vocabulary does suffer somewhat, although thoroughly-acquired passive vocabulary remains stable. Reading ability remains very stable, listening comprehension falls off only slightly or not at all.

Check this out: http://stujay.blogspot.com/2007/09/part-1-vietnamese-learning-new-language.html

He's an amazing polyglot and here he discusses learning Vietnamese. He does a day by day process of what he does to learn, and no joke, by the end of one week, he's kinda got the basics down.

Do what works for you. Seriously, everyone's method and skill level for learning languages is different, so don't be overzealous. In other words, know thyself. If you can handle it, do it. If not, don't.

That's just general advice. As for me, I have "studied" languages concurrently, but not really in the same way. For instance, when I was studying Mandarin Chinese, I was also learning Turkish from friends, without formal classes. I studied abroad in Armenia for a summer just months before I went to Beijing for a semester (I had been studying Mandarin for two years at that point). It's all very confusing. Right now, I will say, I am studying two languages that are completely different, one is completely new to me and the other I have dabbled with in the past. Also, I have to try to maintain/improve languages I already know pretty well from childhood and from studying.

The maintanence gets hard when you are not in the environment. When it comes to languages, I am a big advocate of QUALITY over QUANTITY, though, so maybe just learn one really well, and then start another one.

My mother studied French, German, and Spanish concurrently during college. She said it was no trouble--she never had an issue with confusing them.

As for me, when I started on ChinesePod, I was also trying to improve my French and to get a better foothold in Spanish. But I soon began favoring the Chinese, and the other two fell away. I think it had more to do with the quality of the language instruction than with not being able to study more than one at once, though!